EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 You'll have one of those [b]ban[/b]ners in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 (edited) "God says use your free will to follow me or you will burn in hell." If you follow a traditional Catholic understanding of this, I think I might say God's freewill is fascism. If you follow a more current Catholic understanding, hell is not making you suffer, it's allowing you to do what you want even though you're truly ignorant to how life could be better. But you're not suffereing per se. Like the Pope said, hell is not so much fire and brimestone as it is being away from God. And remember that God is love. Figure it out. And I agree with that! But then it depends on what Catholic you ask and I think where to find the stance on this is unclear to like everyone here at least. Maybe this is something that you can believe what you want until it's later doctrinally developed and defined. Edited July 23, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 That didn't make too much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Zewe Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 ^Well put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 (edited) Sorry. What's confusing? Or is it too untenably overwheling to even begin to try to understand it? Edited July 23, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 I guess any valid point you make is overshadowed by you constant double guessing and marginalizing of anything Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 [quote]"God says use your free will to follow me or you will burn in hell." If you follow a traditional Catholic understanding of this, I think I might say God's freewill is fascism.[/quote] Is the first part a quote from someone here, and if so, why would someone's personal feeling on a situation or topic be a party to this one? How is God's free will facism, as compared to Catholic understanding? [quote]If you follow a more current Catholic understanding, hell is not making you suffer, it's allowing you to do what you want even though you're truly ignorant to how life could be better. But you're not suffereing per se. Like the Pope said, hell is not so much fire and brimestone as it is being away from God. And remember that God is love. Figure it out. And I agree with that![/quote] First of all, Hell is separation from God. If God is the answer to every dream you could ever imagine(per se), then living eternity without God is hell. How could that not be suffering? That would be the worst torture ever imagined. And all because you chose it, for yourself. Knowing this and yet still sinning is not ignorance, its downright insanity. Choosing God is choosing love. [quote]But then it depends on what Catholic you ask and I think where to find the stance on this is unclear to like everyone here at least. Maybe this is something that you can believe what you want until it's later doctrinally developed and defined.[/quote] Your last sentence is what ticked me off somewhat. It seems that because you think you know everything that there is to know in the Scripture, then it isnt possible to learn something new, or come to a better understanding of something specific. This is also insanity, plain and simple. I dont claim to know everything, and I welcome new insights in understanding, whether it's Scripture or anything else. Your way of thought is the same as thinking the world is flat and nothing anyone can say will change your mind. And dont claim that you dont think like that, because when you make statements like the one you just did, that's exactly what it means. All thats missing is the stomping of feet and red face. I am sorry for you if every Catholic doesnt agree with every other Catholic. This may mean to you that the Church isnt universal. To me it confirms she is. The fact that many Catholics see hell as different doesnt mean that they are all wrong, yet you complain that they cant agree, or that they are all waiting for the final word from Rome. If every Catholic held the same exact thought on hell, then you'd accuse them of being brainwashed, or simply following orders from the Holy Pontiff and the Magisterium, like sheep to the slaughter. Geez, no one can win in your book, huh? I rather like the fact that there are still alot of unanswered questions. I also am glad that the Church hasnt defined everything in Scripture. I cannot imagine that it would take only 2000 years to figure God out. That would really limit him, dont cha think? I am glad that SOMEONE is willing to admit that there are many mysteries that we just arent ready to understand. If anyone told me that they've got an answer for everything in Scripture, I'd start running the opposite direction. They'd be putting themselves up there with the big guy and that just doesnt cut it with me. So do me a favor, and cut the carp with the comments about the Church. The fact that she admits that not everything in Scripture is definable as yet should be a relief to you. It means we still have much to learn. Together. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 (edited) [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Jul 23 2004, 09:23 AM'] Don't feel left out. As soon as our admin sees this thread you're sure to get "said sign"--meanwhile we all already know you don't rep the Church so its not like we need to see the sign as a warning. :rotfl: [/quote] I think he should get a sign all his own. Perhaps he should be called, "Neo-pagan" or "Wiccan." I believe that he's earned that honor, because of his insightful carrot comment at the beginning of this thread. After all, Wiccans worship nature itself, and since Wicca is a form of animism, it is quite possible that some of them even worship the life force present in carrots. Edited July 23, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 (edited) dairygirl, [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Jul 23 2004, 01:25 PM'] "God says use your free will to follow me or you will burn in hell." If you follow a traditional Catholic understanding of this, I think I might say God's freewill is fascism. [/quote] where did that quote come from? also, define what you think the "traditional catholic understanding" is [quote]If you follow a more current Catholic understanding, hell is not making you suffer, it's allowing you to do what you want even though you're truly ignorant to how life could be better. But you're not suffereing per se. Like the Pope said, hell is not so much fire and brimestone as it is being away from God. And remember that God is love. Figure it out. And I agree with that! [/quote]but, separation from God IS suffering, it is the worse possible kind. i don't think any catholic would deny that hell is a place of suffering [quote]But then it depends on what Catholic you ask and I think where to find the stance on this is unclear to like everyone here at least. Maybe this is something that you can believe what you want until it's later doctrinally developed and defined.[/quote]where have we ever presented ourselves as confused on this issue? you confuse me to no end. i never know where you are coming from half the time. where do u come up w/ this stuff? ??? Edited July 23, 2004 by phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2004, 06:38 PM'] I think he should get a sign all his own. Perhaps he should be called, "Neo-pagan" or "Wiccan." I believe that he's earned that honor, because of his insightful carrot comment at the beginning of this thread. After all, Wiccans worship nature itself, and since they are a form of animism, it is quite possible that some of them even worship the life force present in carrots. [/quote] I'd be suprised if Chris knew about life forces. The farthest I get with him is, "All you know about the Wiccan is they are dirty witches who need burning" or something to that effect. It really doesn't help to tell him I have Wiccan friends, and I can only go by what their religious practices are. All the same, carrots taste good, I like the bigger ones, the baby carrots make me really thirsty and disappear to fast . God bless, Michael Filo Edited July 23, 2004 by MichaelFilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 (edited) [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Jul 23 2004, 11:25 AM']"God says use your free will to follow me or you will burn in hell." If you follow a traditional Catholic understanding of this, I think I might say God's freewill is fascism. If you follow a more current Catholic understanding, hell is not making you suffer, it's allowing you to do what you want even though you're truly ignorant to how life could be better. But you're not suffereing per se. Like the Pope said, hell is not so much fire and brimestone as it is being away from God. And remember that God is love. Figure it out. And I agree with that! But then it depends on what Catholic you ask and I think where to find the stance on this is unclear to like everyone here at least. Maybe this is something that you can believe what you want until it's later doctrinally developed and defined.[/quote] Daisy, I'm sure you meant well, but your grasp of Catholic doctrine is weak at best. The Catholic Church has always held, and still holds, that a man has free will and can choose between various courses of action in the [i]natural[/i] order. But it has also taught that free will can be abused, and that free will is not the power to do whatever you want, but is the right to do what you ought. It is about choosing the good. To choose that which is evil is not freedom, but slavery. [cf. John 8:34] So, although man has this ability to choose courses of action that are evil in their end ([i]finis[/i]), it is a waste of his being, and ultimately it is self-destructive because it can never fulfill his existence. To choose evil is to choose [i]nothing[/i] over [i]being[/i], because evil is a negation of the good. The Church also teaches that free will, without the aid of grace, cannot rightly choose those actions leading to salvation, i.e., actions that are properly speaking [i]supernatural[/i] and not merely [i]natural[/i]. But once grace is received and man is put into a state of sanctifying grace, then, and only then, can he choose those actions that will merit eternal life. Thus, it is grace empowering him to act at all times, for the good of his being, and as a consequence man's actions in the [i]supernatural[/i] order are truly his own actions, but they are also God's actions, in, with, and through him. [cf. Phil. 2:12-13; cf. Eph. 2:10] Edited July 23, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 IQ of a carrot? Hmm.....Guess that's why I chose to join the church out of my own free will. If only I could have the IQ of a cucumber, maybe I could get straight A's next semester. One religion I don't understand is Wicca/Pagan beliefs.....how in the world do they make any sense? Someone give me a good explanation of why you should be Wiccan. There is none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 [quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jul 23 2004, 10:53 AM'] I posted on this "phorum" because a friend of mine told me that I'd get an "I Do Not Rep. The Church" sign by my name. He also said it was "really 1337". Having posted here, I do not see said sign. And I'd really rather not debate with people who think that explicit lesbian scenes in films are a sign that we're racing towards the apocalypse. I also like people who support free will over mindless following of a religious body. Out. [/quote] I do not that any particular movie seen is a sign of the apocalypse, that really is more a protestant thing any way. Also Free will and free thinking is a coner stone of the Church. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 [quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jul 23 2004, 11:27 AM'] But the only reason I came here was to get the beaver dam sign @@... [/quote] Wow. And to think that I didn't want the "sign" Still don't!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted July 24, 2004 Share Posted July 24, 2004 Chris, we love you! No really, I would give my life for you, and so did Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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