Pope John Paul Ii Is A Universalist

[Budge]

For the newbies. Im an ex Unitarian-Universalist. I was UU from age 18-30. Cradle Catholic, returned to Catholic Church after leaving UU for very short time then left after I was saved. Today I am a Christian in a Baptist church.

The UU is an extraordinary liberal church, (www.uua.org) they do not believe in divinity of Christ and teach all religions lead to God. .

While UU, I learned at the foot of my very liberal ministers who were World Federation supporters and one interim minister was even a well known signer of the second Humanist Manifesto which said that the only way peace could come to the world was by all religions coming together for peace and by mankind giving up divisions. Sound familiar? It should. The Pope teaches that all the time too


www.CWNews.com [u]"POPE SAYS GREAT RELIGIONS MUST UNITE FOR PEACE"[/u]

[quote]The history of relations among Jews, Christians, and Muslims shows both lights and shadows, and unfortunately some sad moments," the Pope said. In today's dangerous world, he continued, there is an "urgent need" for the world's great religions to come together, in light of their "common desire that all men be purified of the hatred and evil that always threaten peace."[/quote]

I have explained some about Uuism but one main activity of UU services, [u][b]is the combining of the prayers of many religions from Hindu invocations to what is called the Great Invocation. Our services would include Hindu chants, Buddhist readings and poetry.[/b][/u] God was taught as being present in all the worlds great religions and even the lesser ones even non-theistic Uus aspired to a notion of people searching for the same great truths in this array of false religions or an “archetype” of God.

I studied Theosophy while UU, including Wicca for short time and Humanism. I was very involved and considered becoming UU minister at age 20 but lack of money and becoming ill got in the way. UUs can mix a variety of religious philosophies at once, so dont get confused when I say I believed in Theosophy, paganism and Humanism all at the same time with overlaps.


I know Theosophy. To the point I even subscribed to Theosophical magazines and believed it. Theosophy teaches unity of all things, it is inherently through Madame Blatvasky, the undergirding foundations of the NEW AGE. The New Age is old--Mystery Babylon but was revived in late 1800s.

Freemasonary essentially teaches the same things as Theosophy. Unity of all religions, mankind building archeitect of new world. So when I use the Word Theosophy one can interchange the word Freemasonry. Keep in mind,--[u]The prevailing message of Theosphy which sounds just peachy-keen to the unsaved is that of “unity”-- Unity of thought, beliefs and of the world. Religions are taught as being unified in core beliefs “All religions lead to god” and a panthestic notion of god promoted.[/u]

When I went back to the Catholic Church, I was very ill, knew I wanted to Know Christ but was not saved yet. The Holy Spirit took me out of UU church in ONE DAY. I have shared this testimony with others. I was there for short time but the more I learned, the more I saw that the Pope and others were teaching same ideas I had learned in UU church. In fact as I decided to learn more about Catholicism not realizing itd leave me to an exit.I was literally shocked to see the parallels between the Pope and even Alice Bailey--big time Theosophist and other Theosophical teachings.

Alice Baily used terms like "unity in diversity" and "universal brotherhood" like the Pope meaning the same thing. She taught too that the UN would bring a new Utopia to mankind years before the WCC and Vatican latched on. I read these things in the 80s. She too called for a "new world order" just like the Pope and (see article above about Pope) that "the great religions of the world should come together for peace."


When the Pope says things like this,he is at heart a Universalist with a Christian veneer.

In fact the Pope makes this clear in his encyclical “Guadium et Spes”
[quote] Religious differences reveal themselves as pertaining to another order…[u][b]It is possible that men not be conscious of their radical unity of religion and of their insertion in the very same [/b][/u]. But despite such divisions, they are included in the single and grand design of God in Jesus Christ, who united Himself in a certain way with every man even if he is not conscious of it[/b][/quote]

[b]Through this idea of a supposed unconscious relationship with Jesus Christ, The Pope promotes basically a panethistic Christ through all religions.[/b]

Another thing the Pope writes is that the "Seeds of the Word "exsist in all religions, that too is a very very Universalist idea. He has even said this of Voodoo, a religion that to most Christians is considered out and out demonic.
And that isnt even touching the ideas expressed At Assisi, that all religions are to come together for peace, and the sponsership of false religions praying to their false Gods. But here too, the Pope even admits that he believes all "Authentic" prayer (even that of false religions) goes to god. ...At one point the Pope goes as far to label prayers to false Gods as valid and called by the Holy Spirit
[quote]“All authentic prayer is called forth by the Spirit, The “Seeds of the Truth” present and active in the various religion traditions are a reflection of the unique Word of God, who “enlightens every man coming into the world[/font] and who became flesh in Christ Jesus. They are together an effect of the spirit of truth operation outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body” and which “blows where it wills”.[/quote]

It gets even better. At another time the Pope writes:

[quote]“The Spirits prescence and activity, “ as I wrote in the encyclical Letter, Redemptoris Missio, “affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples and cultures and religions"[/quote]

Right here the Pope says the Holy Spirit is connected to false religions. He is at heart a Universalist with a Christian veneer. The UU church taught as over and over, that all religions go to god, they all seek an archetype of god or directly go to the spirit of God who we cannot fully understand. Imagine heaven on top of a mountain with many different pathways going there. That is essentially the message of the UU church. Even atheists are seen as HOLY in the UU. More and more this has become the message Vatican, especially via the interfaith movement.

Here is an example of a man who is said to have best chance of being the next Pope, promoting the same Universalist ideas...Cardinal Arinze’s book…"The Solidarity of the World’s Religions" shows that the one world religion theme is promoted Vatican Wide. Arinze considered one of the leading candidates for the next Pope writes “With reference to other religions, the Church sees a great difference between them and herself,” Cardinal Arinze said. “The other religions are ex-pressions of the human soul seeking God, with some beautiful insights” Arinze goes on to point out errors in other religions but also speaks of their “treasures” Rather then following the Bible which speaks of children of darkness and those being led into the ditch by the blind (false religions), The Vatican promotes the Syncretistic religion of the New World Order. God is to be found in the world’s false religions.

When it comes right down to it, John Paul II and these other leaders are universalists who believe as long as someone is sincere and good they can be saved and that non-Christians can get to heaven without saving faith in Christ.The New World religion will be Interfaithism, that any religion as long as the participant is sincere are all valid pathways to God. (discovery of this book was one of the first things GOd showed me as He led me out of Catholic Church)

The Pope sums up his Universalist beliefs in this one sentence.[quote]It will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour.[/quote]

(Cite for above quote Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue-Congregation for The Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991 n29; L’Ossertavore Romano English Edition, 1 July 1991, p.III).

So basically the Pope believes that people can find god in false religions and receive salvation. Just like the UUs. Just like the Theosophists, Just like the Freemasons.

I left Catholicism and this was one of the many good reasons.

Edited July 21, 2004 by Budge

[Dave]

Number one, there is NEVER a good reason to leave Catholicism. Number two, the only reason you make such nonsensical claims about our Holy Father is because you take what he says out of context and assign meanings to it that just aren't there. I believe we've explained to you in the past that these charges you make against the pope are wrong. Please listen to what we say, and do it with an open mind.

[Budge]

read the statements. The same ideas are repeated in endless encyclicals and more. I have not taken them out of context. I am quoting verbatim. You cant just shout youre wrong at me without supporting your side. You havent even done that.

[Dave]

I've read the statements. However, you're assigning meanings that just aren't there. Neither the Church nor the Pope teach that all religions are salvific. Rather, if a person, THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, is unaware that Jesus Christ is the way, then they can still be saved. Of course, we can never know for certain who is saved and who isn't. But anyone who goes to heaven goes there because of Jesus, not apart from Him.

The Pope wants to witness to those of other religions, which is a major motivation behind his desire to unite those of other religions. Even false religions are bound to get SOMETHING right. For example, except maybe for Islam, I can't think of any religion that teaches that murder is wrong.

Edited July 21, 2004 by Dave

[MC Just]

dave is correct Budge, I even took those teachings out of context when i first read them. I stand corrected. JPII is not a universalist, he is merciful and saintly and is only doing what's right. What JPII says and what the universalist say are two different things.

[MC Just]

You just have to trust the Holy Father he know's what he's doing dont worry.

[DojoGrant]

Budge, you provide sporadic quotes and then extensive commentary, stating the Pope is "basically" saying this, or taking the Cardinal's words and state: "He is saying this and that."

There statements can be read that way because its a gereral statement without the context of the whole of the piece from which it was taken.

Even if the Pope was universalistic, which he is not, you could not prove it from the minor selective quoting you provided.

[God Conquers]

That is ridiculious.

The pope is speaking of the necessity of peace-loving people to fight war and violence, not saying all religions are the same. HUGE difference.

He recognizes truth and genuine desire to seek God in other religions, but is not saying that they are all true.

[Theoketos]

Peace and Blessing to All even and most espcially to Budge.

I do not think the Pope is a universalist becuase he says that the Holy Spirit moves in people of other faiths. After all it seems to me that God is calling every one at all times to come to Him. This would then include those of another faith.

I wish that you would better refernce your quotes, using paragraph numbers, so that I could get a better sense of the Context.

[mmmerf]

Keep in mind that the Pope acknowledges that [b]all people are created in the image and likeness of God[/b]. That's not the Pope's idea - that's God's idea. Given that, the pope recognizes that all peoples, not just Christians, feel an inward pull towards God, and answer that call. While we have the [i]complete[/i] answer in Jesus Christ, it does not mean that the struggles of the muslim or the hindu to seek their creator are completely in vain.

We could put it another way.

2+2=4. Correct.

Which of the following is more incorrect?

2+2=7
2+2=4,237,182
2+2=paisley
2+2=:thumb:

As you can see, while all are incorrect, some are farther off than others.

Anyways. There's also this way of looking at it: Don't diss the pope, man. He brought down communism!

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]Through this idea of a supposed unconscious relationship with Jesus Christ, The Pope promotes basically a panethistic Christ through all religions.[/quote]

He is not speaking of UU ideologies that espouse the validity and full truth of all religions, but rather is refering to those living in invincible ignorance of the Truth of catholicism.



[quote]“All authentic prayer is called forth by the Spirit, The “Seeds of the Truth” present and active in the various religion traditions are a reflection of the unique Word of God, who “enlightens every man coming into the world[/font] and who became flesh in Christ Jesus. They are together an effect of the spirit of truth operation outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body” and which “blows where it wills”.[/quote]

This is truth, not UU. All people, being created in the image of God, tend towards Him. Without Divine Revelation, they will, as it is written in the Scriptures, create altars to an unknown God. These religions, made in an earnest striving towards the Truth, bear that Truth, but only in part. The Catholic Church alone contains the Fullness of Truth.



[quote]“The Spirits prescence and activity, “ as I wrote in the encyclical Letter, Redemptoris Missio, “affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples and cultures and religions"[/quote]

This is true and not a "UU" belief. I would not hesitate to say that the Spirit was moving in post-Socratic Ancient Greece, with its embrace of reason and its heroes like Aristotle and Plato (who could be considered a secular John the Baptist).



[quote]It will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour.[/quote]

Again, Invincible Ignorance is all that he is talking about: anyone who sincerely strives to live according to the natural law and who does not understand that the Catholic Church is the Fullness of Truth can still be saved, through the merits of Christ, insofar as they strive to live in accordance with that law, and do not die in a state of mortal sin.


Bruce, I kind of get the feeling this was more of an editorial than an actual apologetical argument, for if it was, in fact, the latter, then it was extremely weak.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Guest JeffCR07]

I would also like to add that the final quote is not something that is exclusively held as truth by catholics either. Anyone who has read C.S. Lewis' [u]The Last Battle[/u] will immediately remember the dialogue between Aslan and one of the "enemy" soldiers. The soldier lived and fought for a foreign land, and served a foreign God, but, when he saw Aslan, recognised Him as God and two two conversed.

Most notably, one will recall that, when asked how He could forgive the soldier, Aslan replies something to the jist of "Every time that you kept a promise in the name of a false God, you did it, truly, in MY name, for nothing of theirs is good, as a kept promise is good, but rather, it is Mine. So too any time you did a good deed or held a true belief in the name of a false God, for truly, it was in My name that such things were done. In the same way, whenever a murder, theft, or any evil deed is done in my name, it is not truly my name in whom these actions are done, but rather that of a false God, for nothing of mine is evil."

I see a marked correlation between Lewis and the teachings of the Holy Father, and I see Truth in both. This is not a faith-compromising UU belief, but rather, a wonderful examination of the issue of invincible ignorance and its application.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Theoketos]

Great Analogy Jeff.

Would it not be wonderful and truly Spirit Lead if we all in the name of Goodness stood on one foot against Abortion, just as an example. I do not think that it would last one day. Let us all pray to end abortion!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 21 2004, 05:41 PM'] I would also like to add that the final quote is not something that is exclusively held as truth by catholics either. Anyone who has read C.S. Lewis' [u]The Last Battle[/u] will immediately remember the dialogue between Aslan and one of the "enemy" soldiers. The soldier lived and fought for a foreign land, and served a foreign God, but, when he saw Aslan, recognised Him as God and two two conversed.

Most notably, one will recall that, when asked how He could forgive the soldier, Aslan replies something to the jist of "Every time that you kept a promise in the name of a false God, you did it, truly, in MY name, for nothing of theirs is good, as a kept promise is good, but rather, it is Mine. So too any time you did a good deed or held a true belief in the name of a false God, for truly, it was in My name that such things were done. In the same way, whenever a murder, theft, or any evil deed is done in my name, it is not truly my name in whom these actions are done, but rather that of a false God, for nothing of mine is evil."

I see a marked correlation between Lewis and the teachings of the Holy Father, and I see Truth in both. This is not a faith-compromising UU belief, but rather, a wonderful examination of the issue of invincible ignorance and its application.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff [/quote]
Thats why I keep recommending people read the [i]Chronicles of Narnia[/i], Lewis explains it better than anybody else.

[Apotheoun]

Budge, I sincerely doubt that you have read the documents that you are quoting from in their entirety.

[quote name='Budge' date='Jul 21 2004, 07:45 AM']In fact the Pope makes this clear in his encyclical “Guadium et Spes."[/quote]
Oh, and by the way, [u]Gaudium et Spes[/u] is not a Papal encyclical; instead, it is a document of Vatican 2. This simple error only hightlights the fact that you haven't read the various documents you've quoted, but that instead you are relying on the misinformation of some secondary source.

God bless,
Todd

Edited July 21, 2004 by Apotheoun