Catholic Jesus Different From Biblical Jesus?!

[at0m1c]

Ok, I need some help in refuting this. Some fellow says that Biblical Jesus is different from Catholic Jesus.

"finally got some time to spare to post some difference between Catholic Jesus and Biblical Jesus:

1. Catholic Jesus has been widely potrayed as one with his heart exposed. What normally known as Sacred Heart of Jesus. No where in the Bible did Jesus told ppl to honour his heart. The 12 promises of honoring the heart is not biblical..it keeps on emphasizing exposing the image of the heart to obtain grace and blessings when one honours the picture.

2. Catholic Jesus appear in several occassions revealing images of himself for ppl to venerate. The Divine Mercy image is one of the occassions in which 'Jesus' told ppl to make a painting of him and honour it to obtain grace and mercy. Biblical Jesus before His ascension pray for His followers and gave the command about preaching the good news and wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Helper. He didnt give instructions to make paintings and hang and honour them.

3. Catholic Jesus is believed to reside in the tabernacle. That is why catholics when entering a catholic church will genuflect to show respect to the presence. Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is when catholics believed that the consecrated host become real flesh and blood, soul and divinity of Christ. When placed in a receptacle known as monstrance, catholics are to kneel before that bread and worship it as if Christ is really there. Biblical Jesus celebrate the Last supper and insititute it as a remembrance for all of us. He never ask ppl to place that bread in a photo frame and worship it. Worship God in spirit and in truth.

Conclusion: Catholic Jesus reveal many things in which is contrary to the teachings of the Bible and in no way is the same Jesus as we read about in the Bible. According to readings, worship of organs such as Heart is a babylonian cult practise.

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

-2 Corinthians 11:4-15"

[url="http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=85413&page=3"]Roman Catholicism[/url]

[phatcatholic]

atomic,

first, some background information is necessary.

catholic devotional life and piety is one of the hardest things to justify to protestants--not b/c there is something wrong w/ devotion and piety but b/c protestant tradition has totally separated itself from the sacramental nature of life. protestants border on gnosticism in their rejection of grace through matter. they insist that God would [i]never [/i]do such a thing. for one, this attempts to restrain God in some way, which is rather audacious. secondly, we see in the bible our Lord using matter and the physical world that we live in in order to perform great things in our lives.

this paragraph illustrates my point, from a very helpful [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ86.HTM"][b]article on Sacramentalism[/b][/url]:[list]
[*]Matter conveys grace all over the place in Scripture: baptism confers regeneration: Acts 2:38, 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21 (cf. Mk 16:16, Rom 6:3-4), 1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5. Paul's "handkerchiefs" healed the sick (Acts 19:12), as did even Peter's shadow (Acts 5:15), and of course, Jesus' garment (Mt 9:20-22) and saliva mixed with dirt (Jn 9:5 ff., Mk 8:22-25), as well as water from the pool of Siloam (Jn 9:7). Anointing with oil for healing is encouraged (Jas 5:14). Then there is the laying on of hands for the purpose of ordination and commissioning (Acts 6:6, 1 Tim 4:14, 2 Tim 1:6) and to facilitate the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19, 13:3, 19:6), and for healing (Mk 6:5, Lk 13:13, Acts 9:17-18). Even under the Old Covenant, a dead man was raised simply by coming in contact with the bones of Elisha (2 Kings 13:21)!
[/list]this is the sacramental nature of the world we live in. God has desired to come to us, to meet us half way, and to use the physical world that we live in to bring us closer to him. with this insight, we can now turn to the objections your opponent raises against the "Catholic Jesus."

[quote]1. Catholic Jesus has been widely potrayed as one with his heart exposed. What normally known as Sacred Heart of Jesus. No where in the Bible did Jesus told ppl to honour his heart. The 12 promises of honoring the heart is not biblical..it keeps on emphasizing exposing the image of the heart to obtain grace and blessings when one honours the picture.[/quote]first off, we do not honor the Sacred Heart of Jesus as if it were "exposed" or separate from the Body of Jesus. it is honored not in and of itself but b/c it is the heart of (and in!) Jesus. secondly, devotion to the Sacred Heart is not really devotion to the heart itself as much as it is devotion and thanksgiving for the overwhelmingly selfless love that Jesus Christ revealed through His Passion and Death. love is often associated w/ the heart, so devotion to the heart of Jesus is devotion to the love he had for us.

he also says that nowhere does Jesus command such a devotion. first off, its not even about paintings or body organs. its about loving Jesus Christ and realizing the great love that he had for us. so, any verse in the bible that speaks of love for Christ and his love for us would support this devotion. secondly, and explicit reference to this devotion is not necessary to prove that it is orthodox. if the premise behind the devotion is biblical, then the devotion cannot be rejected. well, the premise of this devotion is appreciation for the love of Jesus Christ and the reality that is the saceramental nature of our world. both of these are established biblical principles.

[quote]2. Catholic Jesus appear in several occassions revealing images of himself for ppl to venerate. The Divine Mercy image is one of the occassions in which 'Jesus' told ppl to make a painting of him and honour it to obtain grace and mercy. Biblical Jesus before His ascension pray for His followers and gave the command about preaching the good news and wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Helper. He didnt give instructions to make paintings and hang and honour them.[/quote]this argument is merely an extension of his previous argument. in both instances he shows his ignorance of sacramentalism. so, a defense of sacramentalism refutes both this argument and the one before it. the article i linked to above is extremely helpful here.

[quote]3. Catholic Jesus is believed to reside in the tabernacle. That is why catholics when entering a catholic church will genuflect to show respect to the presence. Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is when catholics believed that the consecrated host become real flesh and blood, soul and divinity of Christ. When placed in a receptacle known as monstrance, catholics are to kneel before that bread and worship it as if Christ is really there. Biblical Jesus celebrate the Last supper and insititute it as a remembrance for all of us. He never ask ppl to place that bread in a photo frame and worship it. Worship God in spirit and in truth.[/quote]b/c protestants reject the sacramental nature of our world, they often by extension reject the Real Presence, which is basically the single greatest glorification of matter. what i like to emphasize here is the Incarnational aspect of the Real Presence.

in the Incarnation, our glorious and spiritual Father in heaven chose to take upon himself the physical matter of a human body. no analytical exercise of the five senses can prove this reality. but the eyes of faith reveal to us that in the seeminly ordinary body and person of Jesus Christ is our divine God. likewise, through Transubstantiation, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ takes upon himself the physical matter of bread and wine. no analytical exercise of the five senses can prove this reality. but the eyes of faith reveal to us that in this seeminly ordinary bread and wine is our divine God.

protestants are quick to accept the Incarnation. but, when it comes to the Eucharist, they hypocritically reject it based on the idea that God would never do such a thing. of course, there are many other reasons why protestants reject the Real Presence, but i am concerned here w/ sacramentalism. how can protestants reject this role of matter when they accept the role of matter in the Incarnation? your opponent's first two arguments reveal to me that he struggles w/ the sacramental nature of the Eucharist as most protestants do.

also, as w/ the devotions to the Sacred Heart and the "Divine Mercy image" your opponent is stuck on the external realities (what these devotions show him, what he sees) and cannot get beyond this to the underlying premises. Eucharistic Adoration is not about putting Jesus in a picture frame. it is about worshipping our Lord and Savior! if he believed in the Real Presence as Catholics do then he would have no problem w/ how we act on this belief.

responding to argument 3 will be quite an undertaking since you basically have to defend the Real Presence. i have commented on the sacramental nature of it. for more information and other arguments, spend much time in the [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=6565"][b]Eucharist entry[/b][/url] of the reference section.

finally, your opponent says this: [quote]Conclusion: Catholic Jesus reveal many things in which is contrary to the teachings of the Bible and in no way is the same Jesus as we read about in the Bible. According to readings, worship of organs such as Heart is a babylonian cult practise.[/quote]we don't worhsip an organ. we honor and revere the love of Jesus Christ. this is an important distinction. the "Catholic Jesus" IS the "Biblical Jesus." your opponent has done little to prove otherwise.


i hope this helps. if you have any questions, just let me know.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]1. Catholic Jesus has been widely potrayed as one with his heart exposed. What normally known as Sacred Heart of Jesus. No where in the Bible did Jesus told ppl to honour his heart. The 12 promises of honoring the heart is not biblical..it keeps on emphasizing exposing the image of the heart to obtain grace and blessings when one honours the picture.[/quote]


The Catholic Jesus is the same as the Jesus in the Bible. The sacred heart of Jesus, Jesus holding his Divine pierced heart, is a symbol of his love and what he has done for us. Catholics do not believe that Jesus is literally holding his physical heart.

Using the same logic, then present day Christian marriage would not be the same as biblical marriage because of the use of rings as a symbol in marriage. Rings used in weddings are not in the Bible and it originated as a pagan symbol.

The argument is rather shallow because it does not understand the proper Catholic practice. It also has as its premise the belief that the Bible lays out every possible true expression, act, and symbol of Christianity. This belief cannot itself be found in scripture so it is self-refuting.

Go here to get more info;

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07163a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07163a.htm[/url]

[Theoketos]

[quote]He didnt give instructions to make paintings and hang and honour them.[/quote]

He did not tell them not too either. Even Protestants have pics of the family members, and honor the family that they have by displaying pictures.

We are adopted brothers and sisters of Christ, why not have pictures of Christ?

[Cure of Ars]

[quote][b]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b]

478 Jesus knew and loved us each and all during his life, his agony and his Passion, and gave himself up for each one of us: "The Son of God. . . loved me and gave himself for me." He has loved us all with a human heart. For this reason, the Sacred Heart of Jesus, pierced by our sins and for our salvation, "is quite rightly considered the chief sign and symbol of that. . . love with which the divine Redeemer continually loves the eternal Father and all human beings" without exception.[/quote]

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/478.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/478.htm[/url]


[quote]The 12 promises of honoring the heart is not biblical.. [/quote]


The Catholic Church teaches that there are public revelation and private revelation. The public revelation is the deposit of faith that Christ left the Church and was completely given and closed by the death of the last Apostle. Public revelation is binding on all Catholics. You have to submit to the public revelation that the Church received to be Catholic. Private revelation is another matter and it is not binding on Catholics. The 12 promises are from a private revelation and it is not binding on Catholics to believe. You could believe that the 12 promises are bogus and be just as good a Catholic as someone who believes. So the 12 promises is not a Catholic doctrine although it does not go against Church teaching or the Bible.

[quote][b] Catechism of the Catholic Church

There will be no further Revelation [/b]

66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations". [/quote]

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a1.htm#66"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a1.htm#66[/url]

[Theoketos]

[quote]3. Catholic Jesus is believed to reside in the tabernacle. That is why catholics when entering a catholic church will genuflect to show respect to the presence. Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is when catholics believed that the consecrated host become real flesh and blood, soul and divinity of Christ. When placed in a receptacle known as monstrance, catholics are to kneel before that bread and worship it as if Christ is really there. Biblical Jesus celebrate the Last supper and insititute it as a remembrance for all of us. He never ask ppl to place that bread in a photo frame and worship it. Worship God in spirit and in truth.[/quote]

Jesus Did say do this in remebrence of Me. Thus there is the mass, and while many people can not go to mass every day, Eucharistic Adoration is that alternative, as well as a supliment. It is also a good way to worship God in the Spirit and Truth, because the Eucharist is the Body and Soul of Christ who is the prefection of Truth.

The words receptacle and bread seem a bit demeaning. Catholics do not worship the accidental nature of the Eucharist, but the Jesus. We worship God alone. We do not Worship bread as God, but God who has humbled Himself.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='at0m1c' date='Jul 20 2004, 10:24 AM'] Biblical Jesus celebrate the Last supper and insititute it as a remembrance for all of us. [/quote]
This man has absolutely no idea what anamnesis is.

[at0m1c]

Oh, this forum topic i'm in now is really messy. Catholics versus the Protestants versus the Freethinkers versus the Atheists.

[at0m1c]

Oh yes, what do you people have to say about the scripture he posted?

[MC Just]

The Triad of the Sacred Heart (From the Hebrew Catholic site) "Jewish Mystical tradtition"

The second or middle triad of the Primordial Adam is the arms and torso of the Divine Body. In Catholic devotion this is called the Sacred Heart. The White Right Arm is the Sefirah of Hesed (Mercy/Love) and the Red left Arm is the Sefirah of Din (Judgment/Justice/Power). The torso or heart of the divine body is the Sefirah of Rahamim (Compassion/Beauty). The Sefirah of Hesed (Mercy/Love) is the Attribute that unifies the Godhead - and Hesed is described in the Jewish traditions as having 13 Attributes which are recorded in Exodus 34:6-7. The invocation of these thirteen attributes of Mercy saved Israel from Divine Destruction or Judgement. Kabbalah teaches that, when the Sefirah of Judgement (Din) reacts with the Sefirah of Mercy (Hesed) it brings forth the Sirah of Compassion (Rahamim). These three Sefirot of Din, Hesed and Rachamim are the second or middle triad of the Sefirot.

The first three attributes of Mercy invoked before Moses was YHVH, YHVH, El ­ this is linked to the three mentions of God in the Shema as YHVH, Elohaynu (Our God), YHVH echad (echad = one unity). The Kabbalistic tradition also associates the thirteen attributes of Mercy with the three Kadoshim of “Holy, Holy, Holy” of Isaiah 6 and of the Jewish liturgy. The Jewish Prayer Book calls God the thrice- Holy God. Thus in the authentic Jewish mystical tradition is found a preparation for the Trinitarian and Eucharistic revelation of the New Covenant. This is one of the reasons that traditionally the Rabbinic Jews forbade anyone not over 50 from studying the Kabbalah, as it iwas considered potentially dangerous to Orthodox Jewish Faith.

The Sefirah of Hesed is also called Gedullah (Greatness) and the Sefirah of Din is also called Gevurah (Power). Mercy is the greatest of God’s Attributes. Hesed and Din are the right and left hands or arms of God. As mentioned above Hesed is the White Right Arm and Din the Red Left Arm. The concept of White as a colour of Mercy and red as a colour of Judgement/Justice reminds the Catholic of the divine Mercy Picture of the white and red rays streaming out from the torso or chest of Jesus in the region of the heart. The reaction between Hesed and Din produces the Sefirah of Compassion (Rahamim) which is seen as the torso or heart of the Divine Body and is also known as Tif’eret (Beauty) and Blessed Holy One. The Messiah is also seen as the Beauty of Israel and the Blessed Holy One. Thus this Sefirah is associated with the concept of the compassionate coming Messiah. Tif’eret (Beauty) is also called Heaven, Sun, and King as well as being considered the son of Hokmah (Wisdom) and the son of Binah (Understanding). Evil in this Jewish tradition is called Sitra Ahra ­the Other Side- and comes when Judgement (Din) is not


The Immanent God

The Jewish tradition saw that the Divine Presence in the Temple above the Ark of the Covenant was the point at which the Immanent God entered his creation and maintained it. God’s presence is the Eucharist in today’s world and it is this way through the Eucharist that the Immanent God manifests His love and power into His creation. The more that perpetual Adoration is spread ­ the more love and power flows from these Eucharistic gateways from the heart of God. Zohar 1:7h states that the Shekinah (the Real Presence) is the gate to the Divine. It is adoration of this Divine Presence that opens this gateway and allows the Power (Din/Gevurah) and the Love and Mercy ( Hesed) to flow from the heart of God (the Sacred Heart). 1 Kings 9:3 proclaims that the Shekinah is the eyes and the heart of God ­ and Catholic belief proclaims that the Real Presence of the Blessed Eucharist is the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

“The LORD said to him, ‘I grant your prayer and the entreaty you have made before me . I consecrate this House you have built; I place my name there forever; my eyes and my heart shall dwell there perpetually”(1 Kings 9:3).

Edited July 21, 2004 by MC Just

[MC Just]

There is no difference, it's just our belief in Christ goes deeper than their out of Context Christ.

[Theoketos]

I think that the scripture he or you posted is awesome. God has blest His Church with an awesome heirarchy led directly by the Holt Spirit which helps us learn the what is real and fake.

[at0m1c]

this is what he wrote
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

-2 Corinthians 11:4-15

[at0m1c]

[quote] 1. Catholic Jesus has been widely portrayed as one with his heart exposed. What normally known as Sacred Heart of Jesus. No where in the Bible did Jesus told ppl to honour his heart. The 12 promises of honoring the heart is not biblical..it keeps on emphasizing exposing the image of the heart to obtain grace and blessings when one honours the picture.[/quote]
I write:
Firstly, we do not honour the Sacred Heart of Jesus as if it were "exposed" or separate from the Body of Jesus. It is honoured not in and of itself but b/c it is the heart of (and in!) Jesus. Secondly, devotion to the Sacred Heart is not really devotion to the heart itself as much as it is devotion and thanksgiving for the overwhelmingly selfless love that Jesus Christ revealed through His Passion and Death. Love is often associated w/ the heart, so devotion to the heart of Jesus is devotion to the love he had for us.

[quote]2. Catholic Jesus appear in several occassions revealing images of himself for ppl to venerate. The Divine Mercy image is one of the occassions in which 'Jesus' told ppl to make a painting of him and honour it to obtain grace and mercy. Biblical Jesus before His ascension pray for His followers and gave the command about preaching the good news and wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Helper. He didnt give instructions to make paintings and hang and honour them. [/quote]
I write:
Matter conveys grace all over the place in Scripture: Baptism confers regeneration: Acts 2:38, 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21 (cf. Mk 16:16, Rom 6:3-4), 1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5. Paul's "handkerchiefs" healed the sick (Acts 19:12), as did even Peter's shadow (Acts 5:15), and of course, Jesus' garment (Mt 9:20-22) and saliva mixed with dirt (Jn 9:5 ff., Mk 8:22-25), as well as water from the pool of Siloam (Jn 9:7). Anointing with oil for healing is encouraged (Jas 5:14). Then there is the laying on of hands for the purpose of ordination and commissioning (Acts 6:6, 1 Tim 4:14, 2 Tim 1:6) and to facilitate the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19, 13:3, 19:6), and for healing (Mk 6:5, Lk 13:13, Acts 9:17-18). Even under the Old Covenant, a dead man was raised simply by coming in contact with the bones of Elisha (2 Kings 13:21)!

This is the sacramental nature of the world we live in. God has desired to come to us, to meet us half way, and to use the physical world that we live in to bring us closer to him.

[quote]3. Catholic Jesus is believed to reside in the tabernacle. That is why catholics when entering a catholic church will genuflect to show respect to the presence. Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is when catholics believed that the consecrated host become real flesh and blood, soul and divinity of Christ. When placed in a receptacle known as monstrance, catholics are to kneel before that bread and worship it as if Christ is really there. Biblical Jesus celebrate the Last supper and insititute it as a remembrance for all of us. He never ask ppl to place that bread in a photo frame and worship it. Worship God in spirit and in truth.[/quote]
I write:
You already reject the sacramental nature of this world, so I believe you too reject the Real Presence. Let me explain. In the Incarnation, our glorious and spiritual Father in heaven chose to take upon himself the physical matter of a human body. No analytical exercise of the five senses can prove this reality. But the eyes of faith reveal to us that in the seeminly ordinary body and person of Jesus Christ is our divine God. Likewise, through Transubstantiation, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ takes upon himself the physical matter of bread and wine. No analytical exercise of the five senses can prove this reality. But the eyes of faith reveal to us that in this seeminly ordinary bread and wine is our divine God.

[quote]Conclusion:  Catholic Jesus reveal many things in which is contrary to the teachings of the Bible and in no way is the same Jesus as we read about in the Bible. According to readings, worship of organs such as Heart is a babylonian cult practise. [/quote]
I write:
Also, as w/ the devotions to the Sacred Heart and the "Divine Mercy image" you are stuck on the external realities (what these devotions show you, what you see) and cannot get beyond this to the underlying premises. Eucharistic Adoration is not about putting Jesus in a picture frame! It is about worshipping our Lord and Savior! We don't worhship an organ. We honour and revere the love of Jesus Christ. This is an important distinction. The "Catholic Jesus" IS the "Biblical Jesus."

But he says
"as much as the explanation do make some sense...they do not have solid biblical backing. the making of images and veneration of these are surely not allowed in the Bible. if God knows humans like pictures so much..then y the bible is all in words?

the bible also emphasise on a faith that require no sight. then why keep insisting people need to see and touch some relics and pictures in order to believe?

Grace from God is it tt limited that we need sacramentals such as medals and scapulars to obtain? Christ's death is not powerful and sufficient enough to make us worthy of God's grace? Mary dun wear medals..yet she is highly favored and God's grace is on her.

Moses and all the biblical figures do not encounter God in bread and images. They saw God in visions and out of faith.

Pictorial representations, no matter how legitimate it seems on human terms is not the right manner to remember, observe, worship and honour God-the invisible.

Why dun we worship a picture of Jesus's brain so that we can have the mind of Christ?"

Worship a picture of Jesus' brain? Huh?

[phatcatholic]

hey bro, if you can, try to paraphrase our words when you use them

now, on to his reply:

[quote]"as much as the explanation do make some sense...they do not have solid biblical backing. the making of images and veneration of these are surely not allowed in the Bible.[/quote]he needs to look closely at the verses in scripture that condemn images. he will find that images are not to be made for [i][b]worship[/b][/i]. nothing condemns them being made for the purpose of directing our minds and hearts to God. how can images be wrong when they facilitate our prayer and worship of the One Lord?

[quote] if God knows humans like pictures so much..then y the bible is all in words?[/quote]first off, in the early years of the Church, before the masses knew how to read as they do today, pictures [i][b]were [/b][/i]used to teach the people about Christ and the stories of the Bible. it is for that reason that many stained-glass windows, paintings, and statues were created. also, if you look at the very first editions and printings of the King James Bible--as well as similar bibles of that time period--you will find that they are extensively adorned w/ wood carvings and other artwork and illustrations.

of course, today, since most Christians can read, the Bible is mostly in words. Words are also the most effective way to get any point across--much more effective then pictures. however, this does not discredit the use of pictures to "illustrate" a story or to aid our prayer life.

[quote]the bible also emphasise on a faith that require no sight. then why keep insisting people need to see and touch some relics and pictures in order to believe?[/quote]catholics do not insist on these at all. we argue not that the use of pictures and relics is absolutely necessary, but that the use of them is an orthodox practice. this is a big difference. also, Catholics have plenty of "faith without seeing," the most notable example being our belief in the Real Presence.

[quote]Grace from God is it tt limited that we need sacramentals such as medals and scapulars to obtain? Christ's death is not powerful and sufficient enough to make us worthy of God's grace? Mary dun wear medals..yet she is highly favored and God's grace is on her.[/quote]again, no one is claiming that medals and scapulars are absolutely necessary. we can and do receive grace w/o them. we merely contend that grace can also be received through the physical aided by the spiritual (see my last post where i mentioned matter "conveying grace all over the place").

[quote]Moses and all the biblical figures do not encounter God in bread and images. They saw God in visions and out of faith.[/quote]for one, visions are images. secondly, if manna from the sky isn't people encountering God in bread, i'm not sure what is.

[quote]Pictorial representations, no matter how legitimate it seems on human terms is not the right manner to remember, observe, worship and honour God-the invisible.[/quote]we are merely claiming that it is right, not that it is THE right way, or more right then any other way.

[quote]Why dun we worship a picture of Jesus's brain so that we can have the mind of Christ?"[/quote]again, as i said in my last post, we do not worship these images. we do not worship paintings or statues of Jesus. we do not worship his sacred heart. no worship is being afforded these things. instead, these things direct our worship to God.


i hope this helps. if you have trouble putting these responses into your own words, then you can go ahead and quote them verbatem. i give you permission . i ask that you first try to paraphrase though b/c this will help you to learn and understand my arguments. also, apologists who are more established, like Dave Armstrong, would disagree w/ using their work w/o providing a link or giving him credit.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited July 22, 2004 by phatcatholic