You Decide 2004

[Luthien]

I turn 18 August 4th. Im all set...

[oldkasperl]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Jul 22 2004, 08:35 PM']"Bush '04
FOUR MORE WARS!"

LOL! I thought about it at least. But I am too poor to waste money on that. I think without idealism, what do we have. We are idealist in wanting to make the world a better place, and one way to do that would be new found respect for life, etc. [/quote]

I know it's partly a joke, but in actuality, keeping Bush in office will likely not start new wars. The invasion of Iraq was a tactical decision in the war on terrorism, as was the invasion of Afghanistan. The goal is to show our dedication in eradicating an ideology that simply does *not* value human life-- terrorism, specifically Islamic extremism. Quiet diplomacy is working ("working") in Syria. Is that because we were just too cowboy to go and try to work things out nicely before, and are coming around now? Or is it because we showed a rogue nation that we're much more likely to keep our word than, say, the UN?

If Kerry is elected, will we have more wars? I doubt it. Will we do anything realistic to fight terrorism? I doubt that even more.

The problem with political idealism is that it is based around the idea that humans can create a heaven on earth. Maybe that's in keeping with Christ's teaching to His children, but in a secular society it makes men their own gods-- more than that, it makes [i]society[/i] their god. It's all consistent with, say, Lennon's "Imagine."

I don't see that as a proper Catholic Church goal, and I'm not even Catholic.

[oldkasperl]

No voting for me, though. I only turn 16 at the end of July.

[WCC_Catholic]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jul 22 2004, 04:45 PM'] If kerry becomes President, say bye bye to all our pro-life efforts. [/quote]
that is true he said that the first thing he wants to do is to start sending money to other countries like mexico to help with abortion efforts. so a vote for Kerry means taking 100 steps back for the prolife movement

[God Conquers]

If I was an american citizen, I'd abstain and pray that Kerry wins.

If George Bush wins in 2004 Hilary Clinton will cake walk in 2008.

And Clinton would be 1000% worse for the Pro-Life movement than John Kerry ever could be.

[little_angel202]

ok to stop the arguments - why does no one vote for the green party ?

[cathgirl]

It was funny, I guess there's this one guy who is named Kerry Dean Edwards! I think that's funny!

[XIX]

I think the Green Party it far more contrary to the teachings of the Church that Bush is. That is just what my poro-life friends says though. I really am not sure for myself.

Anyways, that's why not to vote for him.

I would have to say that I'd have qualms about voting for Bush, though. He endorsed the vehement pro-abort Arlen Specter in a very tight Senate race over the pro-lifer Patrick Toomey. Arlen barely won, probably because of the endorsement. I understand the politics, but he still supported a pro-abort just to gain a few votes in Pennsylvania. I'm pretty sure he did the unborn no favors there.

I dunno, maybe the Constitution Party I'll vote for?

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Jul 23 2004, 08:53 AM'] If I was an american citizen, I'd abstain and pray that Kerry wins.

If George Bush wins in 2004 Hilary Clinton will cake walk in 2008.

And Clinton would be 1000% worse for the Pro-Life movement than John Kerry ever could be. [/quote]
nah, cuz even tho hilary might run (lets pray she doesn't!!!!) we can trust and pray that there will be someone to vote for besides her.....like Jeb Bush or someone else who rocks.....not Mrs. Clinton who actually APPROVES of how China runs things.....now thats SCARY......

as for voting for a third party, many times by voting for a third party you end up [i]helping[/i] the one you dont want to get into office, instead of trying to keep out you who know is going to really distruct..........why? cuz your vote wasn't there to stop him......

not to mention...there are defenseless, innocent lives that are at stake here (for the nex 4 yrs) .....for them we have to defend them....and fight for them......

[zwergel88]

[quote]zwergel88 and shelly_freak,

Are y'all Catholic? If so, you shouldn't vote for Kerry unless you're willing to put yourself in a serious state of sin for supporting abortion. [/quote]

sorry, i've been trying to stay out of this debate, and I haven't looked at the thread, but I guess now I'll try to defend myself

of, course i'm Catholic, and if a better pro-life Republican candidate were running, for example, John McCain, I would vote for him in a second (I say vote, but I can't vote, anyway...) however, I think that Bush is very dangerous to the world. to me being pro-life, means not only protecting the rights of the unborn but protecting innocent Iraqis, and Afghans, and US soldiers who have to die every day because of the decisions made by the Bush administration. (please lets not debate the war on terror now) I also am so worried about what might happen to America, if Bush is re-elected, his administration has already began encroaching on the rights of Americans.

I want abortion to end as much as you all do, however, i think that the pro-life movement can continue with Kerry as president. You say that voting for Kerry would put one in a serious state of sin for supporting abortion, but I do not support abortion at all, I am voting for Kerry for all of the good things he would do for the world, and of course i would argue that he is more pro-life than Bush, since I doubt that he will invade countries, and he also is against the death penalty, which of course Bush is not.

I definatly am not very good at debating, and since the rest of you are, I probably won't even look at this thread again, but try to just understand what I am trying to say, even if you don't agree with it.

[flip]

I guess it comes down to:




would you save millions of unborn babies?

OR

or thousands of soldiers and civilians, and hundreds of convicted felons?



which one is more important?

[zwergel88]

why can't we save both, like i said, I really believe that the pro-life movement can continue with Kerry as president

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='zwergel88' date='Jul 23 2004, 11:31 AM'] why can't we save both, like i said, I really believe that the pro-life movement can continue with Kerry as president [/quote]
hmm....how can somone who all the aboriton ppl are endorsing because it will allow them to spread their contraception and abortion killing not only more rapid in our own country but in others as well?

how can someone who has plans to do that be Pro-LIFE?

im sorry but Kerry is anythign [b]BUT[/b] pro-LIFE......his made his stance already....his going to have abortion...

by being pro-abortion Kerry is taking lives......worse and more distructive than any war can compare........

remember theres a war going on right now......in the womb....which is now the most dangerous place to be...... its a killing against the direct killing of the innocent and defenseless....its call abortion.

if Kery thinks aboriton is "okay" than he has NO meanign and will never uphold the the sacredness, respect or sacnity of hte greatest gift of all....LIFE>

[dUSt]

Did you read the quote I provided from John Paul II? [b]Abortion is a more serious sin than any other sin that exists.[/b] Please, please, please re-read the statements from our Holy Father, and re-consider who you'd vote for:

[i]“abortion and euthanasia are crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws; instead there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, [b]it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or vote for it.[/b]’" (The Gospel of Life, no. 73)[/i]

Your reasoning for voting for Kerry instead of Bush is basically "the lesser of two evils". But our Holy Father says:

[i]“it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (cf. Rom 3:8) … even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general” (Veritatis splendor, nos. 71-83).[/i]

Also, read what JPII says about cooperating in evil:

[i]“Such cooperation [in evil] occurs when an action, either by its very nature or by the form it takes in a concrete situation, can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life[b] or a sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it.[/b] This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it. Each individual in fact has moral responsibility for the acts which he personally performs; no one can be exempted from this responsibility, and on the basis of it everyone will be judged by God himself” (cf. Rom 2:6; 14:12) (The Gospel of Life, no. 74) [/i]

Our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II is [b]clear[/b] on this issue. When you vote for a pro-choice politician when a pro-life politician is available, you are in direct opposition to John Paul II. Personally, I would not feel comfortable calling myself a Catholic when I ignore direct teaching from the Vicar of Christ.

I hope you re-consider. God bless.

[zwergel88]

Well, I honestly don't think that a pro-life politician is avaliable. In no way do I consider Bush pro-life. Anyway, I don't like the fact that Kerry is pro-choice, I really don't, but to me, in my mind/conscience (sp)/ whatever, it just seems totally wrong to support Bush, he is just too destructive. I can't explain it any better than that.