Feminists?

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='picchick' post='1727328' date='Dec 13 2008, 09:56 PM']That passage makes me very angry.

Sorry guys, some men are just idiots as are women. I will teach them if teaching is needed. AND furthermore I will NOT be silent.

I have problems with this passage and always have.

Shamefacedness? Why? What have I to be ashamed of for being a woman.

And yes I know the heck I will recieve with this post.

It seems that St. Paul is making women suffer and repent for the sin of another.

Just remember, men could have said no. And I wonder if man would have told satan no. No, men are just as prideful as women. They show it differently but are still proud. Or was it the fact that women are so seductive that he could not refuse a piece of fruit...[/quote]

Another thing that confuses me is St. Paul saying that Adam wasn't deceived in the Garden of Eden. How is that? He ate the fruit, and the loser blamed it on Eve! How is he not deceived? -Katie

[picchick]

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1727413' date='Dec 13 2008, 10:13 PM']I'm not touching this thread after the proverbial can of worms Hassan just opened up.[/quote]


Yeah...probably not.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1727413' date='Dec 13 2008, 11:13 PM']I'm not touching this thread after the proverbial can of worms Hassan just opened up.[/quote]

I don't think I opened up a can of word, I just quoted the Bible. I did not say it was wrong or this somehow invalidated Catholicism. I was just pointing out to HisChildForever that I doubt St. Paul would agree with her claims of the compatability of Christianity and femminism.

[picchick]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1727379' date='Dec 13 2008, 09:41 PM']I think St. Paul has a lot of good things to tell women in the passage, and I don't think we should ignore it or even disagree with it. After all, he is [i]St[/i]. Paul, but even more what he writes is the word of God. It is God's word, not him. And what God says is going to only be for the benefit of the woman and explain her mission and how she is to grow in holiness.

There is a time for all things. Our Blessed Mother surely lived what St. Paul said. She was quiet a lot of the time. We hardly hear her speak. She pondered all things in her heart. She was modest and obedient. Then we see too her telling her son that they have no wine, and asking him to remedy the situation. She is strong and courageous. There is a time and place for everything. The verses show us how to behave in prayer and encourage us to be modest and submissive in such. I think it is right, however there is a time and place for everything. There is a time to be silent, and there is a time to speak up for what is right and good (however with a calm, submissive attitude).

Women should keep in mind their faults. A lot of women (myself included) could grow more for the better if we kept our mouths shut sometimes and stayed away from those things that appeal to one of the vices that is most troublesome to women: vanity. It is good that we keep in mind the sins of Eve. We are a woman like her and suffer from many of the temptations and troubles she suffered from. It is also good to keep in mind the new Eve, our Lady, and by aiming always to be like her and to avoid the sins of Eve we will be great women of God.

Silence really is a beautiful thing and women can grow so much from being silent and "pondering things in their heart", and if we are to be used to teach anyone we must keep in mind that it is by God and for Him alone that we teach. He teaches through us. And knowing our value as women (being proud of that fact) and what a privilege it is to be a woman, we should be ashamed at the way women have behaved. We should strive to follow St. Paul in all his words so that we may not fall into the same sins many of our sex have fallen into, and so that we may fulfill our mission as women: to love and to serve.[/quote]

One can be "silent" in a way and still be able to teach in public places. Furthermore, I serve and love every day of my life. Yet I stand up for what I need to stand up for. I do not remain silent and I lead.

My beef is not necessarily with St. Paul. I think his writings partially cover the traditions of his time and partially is meant in a spiritual way. My beef is with people who take what St. Paul says and twist it to make it into women should be "seen and not heard" and often times not seen at all.

Alright, there is a time to speak up. Why is that when women speak up they must remain calm and submissive? Why not men as well? And furthermore, what is the point for speaking up for your beliefs if you need to be submissive?

Meg

[CatherineM]

Hate to put a damper in such a great debate, but in that passage, St. Paul isn't talking about all women in general. He was speaking about a specific group of women who were disrupting the church in Ephesus.

[CSLF]

[quote name='picchick' post='1727328' date='Dec 13 2008, 09:56 PM']That passage makes me very angry.

Sorry guys, some men are just idiots as are women. I will teach them if teaching is needed. AND furthermore I will NOT be silent.

I have problems with this passage and always have.

Shamefacedness? Why? What have I to be ashamed of for being a woman.

And yes I know the heck I will recieve with this post.

It seems that St. Paul is making women suffer and repent for the sin of another.

Just remember, men could have said no. And I wonder if man would have told satan no. No, men are just as prideful as women. They show it differently but are still proud. Or was it the fact that women are so seductive that he could not refuse a piece of fruit...[/quote]

As I read your post, something occurred to me (that probably should have a long time ago). In one of my English classes the professor told us about a previous year in which his class had read "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift. He was laughing about Americans' inability to read sarcasm correctly as the class was highly offended at what the piece contained.
Often we are so focused on the Bible as the "WORD OF GOD" that we take everything in it completely seriously. (That's not even touching on translation issues!) I'm not saying that it shouldn't be taken seriously, but if we are made in the image and likeness of God, and most of us have a sense of humor, why wouldn't God feel free to include some humor and sarcasm?
I think it's pretty uncontestable, if you believe that God created everything, that God is not a one-dimensional thinker. So why would His Word be?
When Jesus says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" He was making a point, not telling all the 'sinless' guys in the crowd to pick up a rock.

[cmotherofpirl]

St Paul is yelling at specific women in a specific church, who were driving him nuts

If you think about it, St Paul was the worlds FIRST feminist:

Gal 3:28 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, [b]there is not male and female;[/b] for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This is the first time you every see any man saying men and women are equal in any way.

[picchick]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1727446' date='Dec 13 2008, 10:51 PM']Hate to put a damper in such a great debate, but in that passage, St. Paul isn't talking about all women in general. He was speaking about a specific group of women who were disrupting the church in Ephesus.[/quote]


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1727475' date='Dec 13 2008, 11:38 PM']St Paul is yelling at specific women in a specific church, who were driving him nuts

If you think about it, St Paul was the worlds FIRST feminist:

Gal 3:28 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, [b]there is not male and female;[/b] for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This is the first time you every see any man saying men and women are equal in any way.[/quote]

OH
MY
GOSH!


Ok...OK!!!

THIS IS GREAT!!!

I have never heard this before. I have always had it beat into me that this passage was the passage to tell women to remain silent and what not.
You guys are amazing!

[Maggyie]

[quote name='CSLF' post='1727449' date='Dec 13 2008, 11:53 PM']As I read your post, something occurred to me (that probably should have a long time ago). In one of my English classes the professor told us about a previous year in which his class had read "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift. He was laughing about Americans' inability to read sarcasm correctly as the class was highly offended at what the piece contained.
Often we are so focused on the Bible as the "WORD OF GOD" that we take everything in it completely seriously. (That's not even touching on translation issues!) I'm not saying that it shouldn't be taken seriously, but if we are made in the image and likeness of God, and most of us have a sense of humor, why wouldn't God feel free to include some humor and sarcasm?
I think it's pretty uncontestable, if you believe that God created everything, that God is not a one-dimensional thinker. So why would His Word be?
When Jesus says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" He was making a point, not telling all the 'sinless' guys in the crowd to pick up a rock.[/quote]

Well, I don't think St. Paul meant this particular passage in a light-hearted way... however I believe CatherineM is correct that he was addressing a particular group of women who were generally messing things up. Some of it is translation issues - "shamefacedness," when paired with "sobriety," doesn't seem to mean "being ashamed" but more conducting yourself with dignity and propriety. The men in the particular local church St. Paul is talking to don't appear to have had an issue with this, it was the women making a fuss, so Paul being pastorally practical focuses on them.

The reason St. Paul talks about Adam and Eve was that Eve was the one who talked to the Devil and ate first. She was the one who was deceived. The man sort of went along with it later on - you could say he went into it with his eyes wide open which makes it quite a bit worse! But the fact is WOMAN committed the first sin there ever was on Earth. Now obviously we don't have to view Genesis as a strictly historical document, in terms of A did this and B did this in this particular order, but God did inspire this text, so as written it has a meaning we should pay attention to.

Some things are cultural, too. St. Paul also tells women to cover, and the Church no longer requires this. That is why we have the Church - to determine how to interpret various parts of the Bible. Some parts are more important than others. Obviously women are allowed to speak in Church today, and to teach religion etc and thank goodness they are or I know at my parish we wouldn't have nearly enough PSR teachers!

One of my major beefs with feminism is that it has taught women that biblical submission, Marian reserve etc means that you become a "quiet, docile and dull Victorian woman who sits in the corner and keeps quiet." And I don't blame you for getting that impression! That is what a "properly modern woman" thinks when reading St. Paul. If you transported a feminist to AD 33 she (or he since men can be feminists too) would probably think Our Lady was a doormat! No career, hardly says a word worth recording, didn't try giving the Apostles pointers, was not able to provide for herself and lived with her Son's friends after his death, etc.

Ironically this is the Year of St. Paul! To be sure I am not a huge fan of St. Paul, not because of his theology but because I don't like to read sermons, I like when the Word of God takes a story form, such as in the Gospels or in Acts.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Maggie

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1727475' date='Dec 14 2008, 12:38 AM']St Paul is yelling at specific women in a specific church, who were driving him nuts

If you think about it, St Paul was the worlds FIRST feminist:

Gal 3:28 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, [b]there is not male and female;[/b] for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This is the first time you every see any man saying men and women are equal in any way.[/quote]

I can understand some of that passage applying to a certain set of women, but how about the very end? That seems to be universal.

[CSLF]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1727492' date='Dec 14 2008, 12:54 AM']Well, I don't think St. Paul meant this particular passage in a light-hearted way... however I believe CatherineM is correct that he was addressing a particular group of women who were generally messing things up. Some of it is translation issues - "shamefacedness," when paired with "sobriety," doesn't seem to mean "being ashamed" but more conducting yourself with dignity and propriety. The men in the particular local church St. Paul is talking to don't appear to have had an issue with this, it was the women making a fuss, so Paul being pastorally practical focuses on them.

The reason St. Paul talks about Adam and Eve was that Eve was the one who talked to the Devil and ate first. She was the one who was deceived. The man sort of went along with it later on - you could say he went into it with his eyes wide open which makes it quite a bit worse! But the fact is WOMAN committed the first sin there ever was. Now obviously we don't have to view Genesis as a strictly historical document, in terms of A did this and B did this in this particular order, but God did inspire this text, so as written it has a meaning we should pay attention to.

Some things are cultural, too. St. Paul also tells women to cover, and the Church no longer requires this. That is why we have the Church - to determine how to interpret various parts of the Bible. Some parts are more important than others. Obviously women are allowed to speak in Church today, and to teach religion etc and thank goodness they are or I know at my parish we wouldn't have nearly enough PSR teachers!

One of my major beefs with feminism is that it has taught women that biblical submission, Marian reserve etc means that you become a "quiet, docile and dull Victorian woman who sits in the corner and keeps quiet." And I don't blame you for getting that impression! That is what a "properly modern woman" thinks when reading St. Paul. If you transported a feminist to AD 33 she (or he since men can be feminists too) would probably think Our Lady was a doormat! No career, hardly says a word worth recording, didn't try giving the Apostles pointers, was not able to provide for herself and lived with her Son's friends after his death, etc.

Ironically this is the Year of St. Paul! To be sure I am not a huge fan of St. Paul, not because of his theology but because I don't like to read sermons, I like when the Word of God takes a story form, such as in the Gospels or in Acts.[/quote]

Thanks for all the specifics (the context is so helpful when those one-liners seem so harsh), but I still think that the interpretation of tone is underdeveloped when it comes to biblical study. My main point wasn't necessarily that St. Paul was being sarcastic (as I hadn't looked it up to read the context), but that there is the tendency to treat statements that are plucked from the Bible as both completely serious and universally absolute.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1727492' date='Dec 14 2008, 12:54 AM']One of my major beefs with feminism is that it has taught women that biblical submission, Marian reserve etc means that you become a "quiet, docile and dull Victorian woman who sits in the corner and keeps quiet." And I don't blame you for getting that impression! That is what a "properly modern woman" thinks when reading St. Paul. If you transported a feminist to AD 33 she (or he since men can be feminists too) would probably think Our Lady was a doormat! No career, hardly says a word worth recording, didn't try giving the Apostles pointers, was not able to provide for herself and lived with her Son's friends after his death, etc.[/quote]
How is Mary docile? She argues with an angel at the Annunciation. She yells at Jesus [nicely] when he is found at the Temple. She even asks him to perform a miracle, he demurs, and she tells the steward to " do whatever he tells you" knowing full well he won't let her down. She follws him over hill and dale while he preaches and stands under the cross as he dies in agony after his friends run away. She is active, strong, reliable, determined woman - anything but dull.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1727446' date='Dec 13 2008, 11:51 PM']Hate to put a damper in such a great debate, but in that passage, St. Paul isn't talking about all women in general. He was speaking about a specific group of women who were disrupting the church in Ephesus.[/quote]

Ok, that puts it in perspective for me. I feel better about it. Thank you! -Katie

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1727475' date='Dec 14 2008, 12:38 AM']St Paul is yelling at specific women in a specific church, who were driving him nuts

If you think about it, St Paul was the worlds FIRST feminist:

Gal 3:28 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, [b]there is not male and female;[/b] for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This is the first time you every see any man saying men and women are equal in any way.[/quote]

Thanks for telling us that-I feel a whoooole lot better after reading you and CatherineM's posts Katie

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1727492' date='Dec 14 2008, 12:54 AM']One of my major beefs with feminism is that it has taught women that biblical submission, Marian reserve etc means that you become a "quiet, docile and dull Victorian woman who sits in the corner and keeps quiet." And I don't blame you for getting that impression! That is what a "properly modern woman" thinks when reading St. Paul. If you transported a feminist to AD 33 she (or he since men can be feminists too) would probably think Our Lady was a doormat! No career, hardly says a word worth recording, didn't try giving the Apostles pointers, was not able to provide for herself and lived with her Son's friends after his death, etc.[/quote]

I don't understand what the distinction is, though-if I'm getting the wrong impression, what is the right impression? -Katie