Mr_Private_Person Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1714435' date='Nov 30 2008, 02:12 AM']I don't know, maybe my wanting a career means that I harbor a secret desire to be a man? -Katie[/quote] Edited November 30, 2008 by Mr_Private_Person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1714435' date='Nov 29 2008, 11:12 PM']I don't know, maybe my wanting a career means that I harbor a secret desire to be a man? -Katie[/quote] If I attribute that desire to you would it make it so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1714440' date='Nov 30 2008, 02:15 AM']If I attribute that desire to you would it make it so? [/quote] Haha, if that's how you view me, it would make the reality of how you view me change. However, I would not change. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1714444' date='Nov 29 2008, 11:16 PM']Haha, if that's how you view me, it would make the reality of how you view me change. However, I would not change. -Katie[/quote] Is a man's perception reality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1714452' date='Nov 30 2008, 02:20 AM']Is a man's perception reality?[/quote] No. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1714430' date='Nov 30 2008, 02:10 AM']And just because I really want a career does not mean any of the following: 1. I am pressured 2. I believe being married and/or being a mother would make me weak 3. I want to be a man[/quote] dont lie just joking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 [quote name='picchick' post='1714361' date='Nov 30 2008, 12:46 AM']I pretty much agree with your post here. However, I do not condone chivalry. I think that it is good manners really. I condone patronization. I think that women who are as you describe do not represent women well and should not be considered feminists. Is that how I want women represented? No. The Paris Hiltons, Linsey Lohans of the world are not good representations of us.[/quote] You mean "condemn," not "condone," right? To condone means to approve of. The Paris Hiltons and Lindsey Lohans of the world are not good examples of womanhood. Neither are the Hillary Rodham Clintons, Gloria Steinems or Rosie O'Donnells for that matter. [quote]I guess my goal here is to change the face of feminism. Yeah, I know, good luck. The picture of feminism today, in my opinion, is wrong. And yes, Mr. Whatever your face, if the woman is happy in the kitchen working and upholds her womanhood then she is a feminist.[/quote] This probably all boils down to semantics, yet it seems in your posts here that you regard any women who "uphold womanhood" or are happy/secure being women as "feminists." If that's how you want to define it, fine - but that's really not exactly what is meant by the way most in the feminist movement use the word. (I see feminism, at least as it has existed since the 1960s, to be a largely destructive movement to society.) I know plenty of strong, secure, happy women who do [i]not[/i] consider themselves to be "feminist." If you're going to call any mentally-healthy happy woman a "feminist," why use the word at all? Why not just call them "women"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 [quote name='Socrates' post='1715034' date='Nov 30 2008, 04:54 PM']If you're going to call any mentally-healthy happy woman a "feminist," why use the word at all? Why not just call them "women"?[/quote] To take it a step further, feminism (to me) also means I believe in equality of the sexes. A lot of people here may interpret that to mean "oh my gosh she believes in female priests!" or other nonsense but this is not the case. I believe that women deserve equal pay and equal opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses' Alt Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 So its a political definition then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 [quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1715127' date='Nov 30 2008, 06:12 PM']So its a political definition then?[/quote] I added on to what Meg said. It is not strictly political. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 [quote name='Socrates' post='1715034' date='Nov 30 2008, 04:54 PM']You mean "condemn," not "condone," right? To condone means to approve of. The Paris Hiltons and Lindsey Lohans of the world are not good examples of womanhood. Neither are the Hillary Rodham Clintons, Gloria Steinems or Rosie O'Donnells for that matter.[/quote] yeah....sorry....and agreed on Hillary, Gloria, and Rosie. [quote]This probably all boils down to semantics, yet it seems in your posts here that you regard any women who "uphold womanhood" or are happy/secure being women as "feminists." If that's how you want to define it, fine - but that's really not exactly what is meant by the way most in the feminist movement use the word. (I see feminism, at least as it has existed since the 1960s, to be a largely destructive movement to society.) I know plenty of strong, secure, happy women who do [i]not[/i] consider themselves to be "feminist." If you're going to call any mentally-healthy happy woman a "feminist," why use the word at all? Why not just call them "women"?[/quote] It is more than upholding womanhood and being happy/secure. It is fighting for equality as human beings which we do not in many circumstances still have. I am not talking fully about legality either. It goes beyond that. For example, and I tend to overuse this example, I believe, medical schools, although they allow women, tend to be less welcoming as such whether it be professors or students. They tend to give women a little more of a hard time to "test" them. One ethicist came to my school and talked about this. Putting cadavers in sexual positions to traumatize the female students, making crude jokes to "scare" them away. It is ATTITUDE that we are fighting for equality in. In the same way, by being a feminist, we are upholding males. We are expecting them to treat us respectfully and equally. That means, yes, using chivilary and manners. Likewise to females, we need to treat males with respect and dignity. If we want to be equal we need to show men how we want to be treated. So being a feminist, to me, is more than just those two phrases. Feminist comes from the word feminine which comes from the word female which means woman. The "feminists" today hardly present themselves as women. We need to wear bras (well most of us do), we have periods, we have babies, we can stay at home, we can work, and we choice to be respectful to men. They do not. They would rather abort babies and put themselves on birth control to make themselves more LIKE men. They are not fighting for EQUALITY but LIKENESS. There is a difference. Why use the word at all? More to go against what the world says the word is. To show them the truth in the word and a good example of it. Yes I believe we are debating semantics. Which is fine. I know what I mean and I am fine with calling myself a feminist and still separating myself from those who claim to be. Meg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses' Alt Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 (edited) But if its just believing in equality of the sexes, (which is already there), in the sense equal pay and oppurtunity, (which SHOULD be there anyway), is a political definition. Edited November 30, 2008 by Galloglasses' Alt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 [quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1715127' date='Nov 30 2008, 06:12 PM']So its a political definition then?[/quote] No read my reply to Socs. I hope that I am explaining what I mean well enough. Please let me know if there is anything unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 [quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1715139' date='Nov 30 2008, 06:24 PM']But if its just believing in equality of the sexes, (which is already there), in the sense equal pay and oppurtunity, (which SHOULD be there anyway), is a political definition.[/quote] I am glad that you treat us equally. There are men (and women) who do not. It is more than equal pay and opportunity. It is the attitude that goes with that. It is more than a political definition. It is a definition in and of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses' Alt Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 (edited) So an assertive attitude. Right. I can agree with that. But you cannot label that to Feminism itself, the word is a spoiled brand. A largely negative one at that. For example, Chuvanism used to imply the national pride one had in the sense that they believed their nation was superior to all others and now it is associated to a largely negative and unchivalric behaviour of men. Its a spoiled brand. As long as you are calling your ideas 'Feminist' it will give people the wrong impression. But this is getting into word play and semantics again.... vicious bloody cycle. Edited November 30, 2008 by Galloglasses' Alt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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