Is It A Sin?

[Aloysius]

well, yeah. it all hasta do with your intention. if it is done for some sort of sexual fantasy or because you feel more comfortable as another gender or something, it is a sin.

[catholicguy]

All cross dressing is an abomination; that is what Deut. states. It doesn't list exceptions. The only possible exception I could think of is for a play, as was done in Shakespeare. Others have said that "if it's just for laughs it's OK". Well, is it OK, then to swear, use the Lord's Name in vain, make lude comments, etc., etc. "for laughs"? No, it is not. Therefore, this is no different. It is a sad state to see such licentiousness among even Catholics! I suppose this is no problem now that women everyday wear men's clothes (trousers/pants), even Catholic women do so to Holy Mass! God bless.

[Madonna]

May I point out that Deuteronomy also has Jewish diatary laws that we no longer follow.

[quote]Deuteronomy 12:16
"Only you shall not eat the blood; you are to pour it out on the ground like water.

Deuteronomy 12:17
"You are not allowed to eat within your gates the tithe of your grain or new wine or oil, or the firstborn of your herd or flock, or any of your votive offerings which you vow, or your freewill offerings, or the contribution of your hand.
[/quote]

[Aloysius]

the condemnation of cross-dressing is retained in Catholic teaching, the dietary laws are not. The Church decided that crossdressing was a moral issue that remains wrong.

[Madonna]

I was refuting [quote] All cross dressing is an abomination; that is what Deut. states. It doesn't list exceptions.[/quote]. I was trying to disprove the reference.

Edited July 28, 2004 by Madonna

[catholicguy]

OK, so since you didn't what do you have to say about the wearing of men's clothes by women?

[carrdero]

Not to derail off the subject but I do not agree with Aloysius' statement. I do not believe that GOD wants us to accept our gender either. As GOD sees us, we do not represent man or woman. We are represented as spirit and personality and this is how GOD sees us. We as humans recognize the man and woman persona and this is why there are so many needless expectations of the sexes(for example men should wear pants and women should wear dresses). So I guess to tie this all back to the topic, if GOD does not recognize our earthly shells (read:models) as man and woman but GOD does recognize our spirit and LOVE why should GOD care how we dress them.

[Madonna]

carrdero, I think the ventures into dangerous territory. That completely nullifies male and female roles. With generd comes certain duties and responsibilities. I think God indeed sees our gender. Gosh, read the Pope's stuff on the new feminism. It's beautiful. A huge part of who I am is my sexuality and the fact that I am woman. If our genders weren't important, God would have probably made us so we could just replicate like bacteria.

catholicguy, I guess it depends on what you call men's clothing. Are pants men's clothing? Who decided women couldn't wear pants? What makes clothing male or female? I'm not advocating men wearing dresses or skirts (although kilts are pretty neat). I myself, wear skirts everyday because I find them comfortable and complimentary to the female form. I also wear gym shorts or jeans sometimes. Is that cross dressing?

[Aloysius]

God created our gender. We are bodies and souls united, our bodies are important. Men and women are different. We must become who God wants us to be. If God created us man, God wills us to be man. If God created us woman, God wills us to be woman.

[Dave]

[quote name='catholicguy' date='Jul 28 2004, 11:34 AM'] All cross dressing is an abomination; that is what Deut. states. It doesn't list exceptions. The only possible exception I could think of is for a play, as was done in Shakespeare. Others have said that "if it's just for laughs it's OK". Well, is it OK, then to swear, use the Lord's Name in vain, make lude comments, etc., etc. "for laughs"? No, it is not. Therefore, this is no different. It is a sad state to see such licentiousness among even Catholics! I suppose this is no problem now that women everyday wear men's clothes (trousers/pants), even Catholic women do so to Holy Mass! God bless. [/quote]
Ok, when I was in college I once participated in my school's annual womanless beauty pageant. It's strictly for laughs -- no drag queen-type stuff. I needed money, and you could win up to $100. And I won! But money aside, are you gonna go so far as to say that I'm a mortal sinner just because I participated in that event?

As for cussing, making lewd remarks, etc. just for laughs, you're comparing apples and oranges.

[God Conquers]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Jul 28 2004, 11:01 AM'] Not to derail off the subject but I do not agree with Aloysius' statement. I do not believe that GOD wants us to accept our gender either. As GOD sees us, we do not represent man or woman. We are represented as spirit and personality and this is how GOD sees us. We as humans recognize the man and woman persona and this is why there are so many needless expectations of the sexes(for example men should wear pants and women should wear dresses). So I guess to tie this all back to the topic, if GOD does not recognize our earthly shells (read:models) as man and woman but GOD does recognize our spirit and LOVE why should GOD care how we dress them. [/quote]
Yo...

God not onle RECOGNIZES our bodies he CREATED our bodies and moulded every aspect of our beings, BODY and SOUL.

There is a reason He created us one way or the other. To reject the way God created you is to reject not only God but personal happiness as well.

We are not merely spirit and personality, we are unity of body and soul.

As such we are either Male, or Female. Not neither, not both, not any one WE choose, but as we are created.

Whether or not pants are male garb or female is irrelevant, clearly in today's culture it is acceptable for both. We are not constrained to dress as was the norm in the 11th Century. We can dress as we wish, so long as we are not rejected our created Identity and gender.

[Madonna]

that statement bothered me so much about the separation of body and spirit that I'm going to comment on it again.

To separate the two as such is dualistic. People should take that idea and :toilet:. That's an awful way to live. Not appreciating to physical...that just blows my mind.

[catholicguy]

I hate to break this to you, but, contrary to what others have said, intention does not negate an intrinsically evil act. You are correct as is your upbringing. Wearing clothes of the opposite sex is intrinsically evil, a mortal sin. As was already stated, Holy Scripture clearly states that this is forbidden and an abomination before God: "A woman shall not be clothed with man's apparel, neither shall a man use woman's apparel: for he that doeth these things is abominable before God." (Deut. 22:5). Those who crossdress are equal to homosexuals, both are "abominable before God." Just because someone's intention to be a homosexual is "love" does not mean that he is now acceptable in his action. You are correct in your original thinking, and the Priest is in error. Regardless of the reason, crossdressing is an abominable mortal sin. Thank you for your honesty and humility in this matter. I am sure you have no intention of doing this again. God bless.

[Madonna]

you still never answered what he considered men's or women's clothing.

Both men and women dress and jeans and t-shirts. Which genders clothes is it? Are women trying to look like men, or are men trying to look like women?

And how is it wrong if the woman isn't trying to look male, or the man isn't trying to look female?

I understand in the case where a man goes in drag (makeup, pink frilly dress, heels) things that have never been associated with men.

Otherwise, everything seems like it could go either way.

Since you seem to be so definite on the topic, I'd really appreciate your response.

[catholicguy]

Well, men have worn pants for a long period of time (I am not sure of the actual dates, but definitely since the late Middle Ages). Women have worn pants for 30 or 40 years. I think history alone tells us that pants are men's clothing. Just because the majority of women wear pants that does not mean that it is somehow acceptable and not sinful. I know plenty of women (and girls) who do not wear pants. In any event, I do not really think that anyone should wear t-shirts but I suppose it would be acceptable for a man to wear them if he is working. I cannot see a reason for a woman to [i]want[/i] to wear a t-shirt since they are so unbecoming of feminine beauty. In any event, I do not think anyone would classify such attire as being feminine, but surely it could be classified as masculine. For this reason, t-shirts can be considered men's clothing. It is wrong to crossdress, regardless of intent, because intention does not have a bearing on matters which are intrinsically evil. If a man is a homosexual and he does not think it is wrong and does not "know" it is wrong, then is it therefore not wrong? Of course not. "Good intentions pave the road to Hell."