qfnol31 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 What is the Church's/ya'lls opinions on excessive corporal penances such as a cilice, etc. Especially the stuff that cuts into a person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Here Zach I'll post this article from CIN very informative [url="http://www.cin.org/mateo/mt96412b.html"]http://www.cin.org/mateo/mt96412b.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 But what about the fact that we're a soul and a body? I'm not really asking about the smaller penances such as fasting, or even not using a bed, etc. But what about the larger ones that harm the body? St. Augustine hits on this, and I believe another does too, but I'm not sure. We are not a soul trapped in a body. Yes, we are to be in control of both, but to cause some types of injury to the body in many ways seems to deny this fact, and tend more towards the idea that we are a soul trapped in a body. We aren't. Our soul and body are meant for each other and are not meant to be seperated. Death is painful for us (literally) because it is the unnatural seperation of body and soul. I've just been reading books where Saints practiced this, and I am wondering how this fits into our Theology today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I see what you are saying that the more intense penances would not fit our society today, especially the ones that do bodily harm to us. And you are correct that our bodies and souls are connected for a reason. I wish I knew more on this topic that way I would be able to discuss it a little better lol you'll just have to bear with me while I read up about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I'm not quite sure what I think about it. I mean, many of the saints did it. Penance is good, but when does extreme penance become abuse of the body God gave you? It's one thing to fast, to do things that we might not want to do, to do some sort of distasteful job that we don't wish to do, or to make some other sacrifice, but this is something greater and different. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1460): [quote]The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."[/quote] We should unite our suffering to the Cross and not shy away from doing what is painful. But I am not sure if this extreme form of penance should be practiced. [quote] St. Augustine hits on this, and I believe another does too, but I'm not sure. We are not a soul trapped in a body. Yes, we are to be in control of both, but to cause some types of injury to the body in many ways seems to deny this fact, and tend more towards the idea that we are a soul trapped in a body. We aren't. Our soul and body are meant for each other and are not meant to be seperated. Death is painful for us (literally) because it is the unnatural seperation of body and soul.[/quote] Very good point. Bear with me, it's almost four in the morning, so I hope this makes sense: since we are created in the image of God and our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, wouldn't abusing ourselves to an extreme be wrong? From the CCC: [quote]364 The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit: Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. [/quote] I'm still not sure what I think about this, but I'm very intrigued by this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 our bodies of course should be treated with respect and all. however, we also realize that they're gonna be fixed up and glorified in the end, and what our real goal on earth is to end this earthly life with a good soul. a bit of damage to our bodies now, so long as it comes from the intention of stengthening ourselves spiritually, is a good thing. so long as you do it with that intention and full faith in the resurection of the body, it is not wrong. while our souls and bodies are intimately connected and all that jazz, physically injury and physical suffering tends to do our souls good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 [quote name='Colleen' date='Jul 19 2004, 03:49 AM']I'm not quite sure what I think about it. I mean, many of the saints did it.[/quote] I know the Saints all seemed to practice some form of penance. Just not all of them used to beat themselves (some did). [quote name='Colleen' date='Jul 19 2004, 03:49 AM']Penance is good, but when does extreme penance become abuse of the body God gave you? It's one thing to fast, to do things that we might not want to do, to do some sort of distasteful job that we don't wish to do, or to make some other sacrifice, but this is something greater and different. [/quote] I agree with this. [quote name='Colleen' date='Jul 19 2004, 03:49 AM']We should unite our suffering to the Cross and not shy away from doing what is painful. But I am not sure if this extreme form of penance should be practiced.[/quote] I wonder as well, but also the suffering on the Cross was not self-inflicted, it was allowed, but not given by himself. [quote name='Colleen' date='Jul 19 2004, 03:49 AM']Very good point. Bear with me, it's almost four in the morning, so I hope this makes sense: since we are created in the image of God and our bodies are temples of the Holy [Spirit], wouldn't abusing ourselves to an extreme be wrong?[/quote] I agree...why is cutting considered wrong? [quote name='Colleen' date='Jul 19 2004, 03:49 AM']I'm still not sure what I think about this, but I'm very intrigued by this topic. [/quote] Yay! This started from an honest question, I'm not trying to cut down anyone, especially not the Saints! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 it all deals with the intention. if we do it with the intention of harming ourselves, it is wrong. if we do it with the intention of spiritually bettering ourselves, it can be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 19 2004, 03:59 AM']Yay! This started from an honest question, I'm not trying to cut down anyone, especially not the Saints![/quote] Oh, no, not at all. I've wondered about this myself, before. [quote] it all deals with the intention. if we do it with the intention of harming ourselves, it is wrong. if we do it with the intention of spiritually bettering ourselves, it can be good.[/quote] That's very important. I think that's one of the main differences between cutting (which usually happens because of depression or a feeling of despair) and penance. But does that still justify it? We can want to do something because we think it's good for us, but does that always mean it [i]is[/i] good for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 19 2004, 04:01 AM'] it all deals with the intention. if we do it with the intention of harming ourselves, it is wrong. if we do it with the intention of spiritually bettering ourselves, it can be good. [/quote] How does the intention make it okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 [quote name='Colleen' date='Jul 19 2004, 04:08 AM'] Oh, no, not at all. I've wondered about this myself, before. [/quote] LoL, that should be split. I was talkin' to everyone with the last sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 because suffering is redemptive. if you do it because your depressed, the suffering will not be redemptive. if you do it to harm yourself, it will not be redemptive. if you do it to strengthen yourself in your convictions and keep your disordered passions under control, it will be redemptive. I like the Fatima kids' idea of a rope, and do it sometimes (though not as extreme as they did it, but of course if the Blessed Virgin showed me a vision of hell I'd prolly be all about it 24/7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 I agree that corporal penances are sometimes necessary, but what if you start taking them a little on the extreme side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 like the Fatima kids? I donno, sometimes you really need extreme penances. the rope around the waist is the most effective penance against impurity i've ever experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 anyway, it depends on what exactly you mean by taking it to the extreme. unless commanded by direct Divine Command, you should avoid doing things that would directly endanger your life. but pusing the limits of the suffering you can endure, so long as it is focusing you more on Christ and less on your sinful ways, is not wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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