skuba steve Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 ok...this is a rare occasion where i actually genuinely want to know what you have to say on a topic.... but please keep it short, like less than 500 words short because apparently you have proven that i don't read and i just don't really see the need for a massive post... But anyway, i mentioned purgatory in a post which was in fact just used arbitrarily in sarcasm and you told me i don't read the bible and gave me a bunch of scriptures which are listed below... (except for one because i don't believe I have the book of "macc." handy at the moment...) anyway, i am asking seriously could you please explain the concept of purgatory as defined by the Roman Catholic Church and how each of these scriptures are relevant to this concept...remember... short please... i'm not setting you up to whack you or anything... just don't particulary understand it and don't understand how the concept is taken from these verses.... Isa 6:6 Then one of the creatures flew down to me, carrying a burning coal that he had taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. Isa 6:7 He touched my lips with the burning coal and said, "This has touched your lips, and now your guilt is gone, and your sins are forgiven." 1Pe 3:18 For Christ died for sins once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, 1Pe 3:19 and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits. mat 12:32 Anyone who says something against the Son of Man can be forgiven; but whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven---now or ever. Luk 12:58 If someone brings a lawsuit against you and takes you to court, do your best to settle the dispute before you get to court. If you don't, you will be dragged before the judge, who will hand you over to the police, and you will be put in jail. Luk 12:59 There you will stay, I tell you, until you pay the last penny of your fine." Rev 20:13 Then the sea gave up its dead. Death and the world of the dead also gave up the dead they held. And all were judged according to what they had done. Rev 20:14 Then death and the world of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire. (This lake of fire is the second death.) Rev 20:15 Those who did not have their name written in the book of the living were thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 21:24 The peoples of the world will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their wealth into it. Rev 21:25 The gates of the city will stand open all day; they will never be closed, because there will be no night there. Rev 21:26 The greatness and the wealth of the nations will be brought into the city. Rev 21:27 But nothing that is impure will enter the city, nor anyone who does shameful things or tells lies. Only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of the living will enter the city. And one more thing... telling me what you believe is one thing... but telling me that I don't read the bible... I doubt that you have any documentation or spiritual inspiration specifically on my reading habbits, so please... how did you prove that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 If I may, the very short answer: Purgatory is a name given to the state in which our souls are in when they are being purified (or cleansed) before entering heaven. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skuba steve Posted September 4, 2003 Author Share Posted September 4, 2003 thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 ok...this is a rare occasion where i actually genuinely want to know what you have to say on a topic.... but please keep it short, like less than 500 words short because apparently you have proven that i don't read and i just don't really see the need for a massive post... But anyway, i mentioned purgatory in a post which was in fact just used arbitrarily in sarcasm and you told me i don't read the bible and gave me a bunch of scriptures which are listed below... (except for one because i don't believe I have the book of "macc." handy at the moment...) anyway, i am asking seriously could you please explain the concept of purgatory as defined by the Roman Catholic Church and how each of these scriptures are relevant to this concept...remember... short please... i'm not setting you up to whack you or anything... just don't particulary understand it and don't understand how the concept is taken from these verses.... Isa 6:6 Then one of the creatures flew down to me, carrying a burning coal that he had taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. Isa 6:7 He touched my lips with the burning coal and said, "This has touched your lips, and now your guilt is gone, and your sins are forgiven." 1Pe 3:18 For Christ died for sins once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, 1Pe 3:19 and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits. mat 12:32 Anyone who says something against the Son of Man can be forgiven; but whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven---now or ever. Luk 12:58 If someone brings a lawsuit against you and takes you to court, do your best to settle the dispute before you get to court. If you don't, you will be dragged before the judge, who will hand you over to the police, and you will be put in jail. Luk 12:59 There you will stay, I tell you, until you pay the last penny of your fine." Rev 20:13 Then the sea gave up its dead. Death and the world of the dead also gave up the dead they held. And all were judged according to what they had done. Rev 20:14 Then death and the world of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire. (This lake of fire is the second death.) Rev 20:15 Those who did not have their name written in the book of the living were thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 21:24 The peoples of the world will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their wealth into it. Rev 21:25 The gates of the city will stand open all day; they will never be closed, because there will be no night there. Rev 21:26 The greatness and the wealth of the nations will be brought into the city. Rev 21:27 But nothing that is impure will enter the city, nor anyone who does shameful things or tells lies. Only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of the living will enter the city. And one more thing... telling me what you believe is one thing... but telling me that I don't read the bible... I doubt that you have any documentation or spiritual inspiration specifically on my reading habbits, so please... how did you prove that? Is it fair to ask for our post to be less than 500 words when the combined word count for all those Scripture quotes is nearly 400 words? Well anyway... I'll try to answer a few of them... Then others can answer more. Isa 6:6 Then one of the creatures flew down to me, carrying a burning coal that he had taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. Isa 6:7 He touched my lips with the burning coal and said, "This has touched your lips, and now your guilt is gone, and your sins are forgiven." This illustrates the need for purification in order for one to be free of guilt, and completely free from the least stain of sin before entering the presence of God. It is not just our flesh that is effected by sin, it is our soul, our whole entire being. So, when we die, yes, the flesh is gone - we can no longer activly participate in sin on earth. But our spirit and soul still feel the effects of our sins! We cannot enter the presence of God with these "stains" as we call them. Though they may be forgiven, for Christ died for the forgivness of sins, they still need to be removed (like gold that is tested in fire!). 1Pe 3:18 For Christ died for sins once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, 1Pe 3:19 and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits. Okay, the place that Christ went to "preach" was hades. It wasn't the place of the damned. It was a place for the dead to stay before the gates of heaven were opened. Now, the kicker is that Jesus had to "preach" to these people. Okay, so why did he need to preach. If upon Jesus death their sins were forgiven and everything was hunky dory - then woudn't they just zoom up to heaven? No! Jesus, God, in his great mercy had to "prepare" these souls for the vision of His Father! If these people of such great and amesome faith (of the OT) had to be preached to before entering heaven, then how much more do we need to be "prepared" to meet our maker. Granted, God had not fully revealed himself to the people of the OT, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, you could argue that Jesus went to preach to them about himself. I don't think so, though. Even after Chrsit died, and after the Gates of heaven were opened, there were people living and dying without knowing Jesus. EVEN NOW there are people who live and die without knowing God fully. So, then, why preach to the OT people in preperation for their enterance into heaven, yet give us a free ticket if we are "saved" on earth? mat 12:32 Anyone who says something against the Son of Man can be forgiven; but whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven---now or ever. You have to actually do some reasonable deduction to understand this. Read the second line first... See, if we say something agains the Holy Spirit, we will not be forgiven now or ever. Actually it is better translated "in this life or the next". So, then, if there IS a sin that WONT be forgiven now or EVER. Then there are sins that WILL be forgiven maybe not now - but possibly LATER. This means that there are sins (against the "Son of Man") that will be forgiven in the "next life", that is, after we're dead. Our understanding is that a "sin against he Holy Spirit", is when a person REFUSES to accept that Christ died for our sins. This individual will die without accepting the Grace to be forgiven. The sin agains the Hoy Spirit is not believing that forgivness is possible. Disparity really. So, this person will die without repenting. Therefore, anyone who dies with a repented heart CAN be forgiven AFTER they are dead! If they are forgiven AFTER they are dead - then there must be a place before heaven, but after earth, where this "forgivenss" takes place. If anyone has some more to add... Or can correct what I've said... I think that's pretty much it. Luk 12:58 If someone brings a lawsuit against you and takes you to court, do your best to settle the dispute before you get to court. If you don't, you will be dragged before the judge, who will hand you over to the police, and you will be put in jail. Luk 12:59 There you will stay, I tell you, until you pay the last penny of your fine." Alegorical really... So, what is Luke talking about? Well, seems to me he's talking about death, and being prepared to die. If you have a sin, you must do what you can to "settle the dispute" before we "get to court". Okay - so we can deduce that "getting to court" is dying. When you die, then, you are taken before the Judge - God. If you haven't settled your dispute, sin, then you will be handed over and placed in jail. "There you will stay, until you pay the last penny...". Okay, so is He talking about hell? NOOOOO! We know you NEVER get out of there. You can't ever "pay the last penny" in hell. So, if it ain't hell, and it certainly isn't heaven, then where, pray tell, is "jail"? This is purgatory. And this goes nicely with the previous quote because we know there are sins that are forgiven AFTER death. Ones that arn't, merit hell. Okay, I've passed my 500 mark. I'll let someone else tackel Rev. God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Please see this http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...?showtopic=1576 about Purgatory. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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