Required Summer Reading

[MorphRC]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp[/url]

[Quietfire]

This should probably be moved to Debate.
Although no one is debating it, the topic and content of the book should be at debate.

More people hang out there (and open mic) so it would get more coverage.

Whatcha think?

[MichaelFilo]

I'll give it a try, debate would be nice, and thank you for all the info! Nothing about those holidays though.

Thanks for the advice,

God bless,

Michael Filo

[Cure of Ars]

Your question takes a lot of knowledge to answer because it is based on overly general half truths that is slanted towards a anit-catholic bias. I will spend some time looking into this. I will tell you what I find.

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]The apostles Paul and John had been "profoundly influenced by Neoplatonism.[/quote]


Problems with this statement;

1. Neoplatonism was used “as a weapon against Christianity.”
2. The first systematic Neoplatonist, Plotinus, lived from 205 to 270 well after both John and Paul.

Where I think the misunderstanding comes from;

1. John uses the word “Logos” (John 1:1) to describe the second person of the trinity.

Why it is not neoplatonism;

Logos was a term used by Heraclitus who lived before Plato. “Simultaneously, the Logos theory conformed to the current Neoplatonistic dualism in Alexandria” but this does not mean that the term Logos is neoplatonist or that John is neoplatonist.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09328a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09328a.htm[/url]

2. Paul also makes comments that at times looks like dualism, the flesh and the spirit.

Why this is not neoplatonism;

Dualism goes back to Plato and the Christian understanding never agreed with the Neoplatonist view of dualism. Go here for further info;

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05169a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05169a.htm[/url]

3. "Christian thinkers, almost from the beginning of Christian speculation, found in the spiritualism of Plato a powerful aid in defending and maintaining a conception of the human soul which pagan materialism rejected"

This is Platonism not neoplatonism.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10742b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10742b.htm[/url]

Here are selected quotes with relevant stuff in bold from the Catholic Encyclopedia on neoplatonism.

[quote]Neo-Platonism

A system of idealistic, spiritualistic philosophy, tending towards mysticism, which flourished in the pagan world of Greece and Rome during the first centuries of the Christian era. It is of interest and importance, not merely because it is the last attempt of Greek thought to rehabilitate itself and restore its exhausted vitality by recourse to Oriental religious ideas, but also because it definitely entered the service of pagan polytheism and [b]was used as a weapon against Christianity. [/b]It derives its name from the fact that its first representatives drew their inspiration from Plato's doctrines, although it is well known that many of the treatises on which they relied are not genuine works of Plato. It originated in Egypt, a circumstance which would, of itself, indicate that while the system was a characteristic product of the Hellenistic spirit, it was largely influenced by the religious ideals and mystic tendencies of Oriental thought. [/quote]

[quote]On the other hand, the strength and, from the pagan point of view,[b] the aggressiveness of Christianity began to be realized. It became necessary, in the intellectual world, to impose on the Christians by showing that Paganism was not entirely bankrupt, [/b]and, in the political world, to rehabilitate the official polytheism of the State by furnishing an interpretation of it, that should be acceptable in philosophy.[/quote]

[quote]therefore, that the growing prestige of Christianity should be offset by a philosophy which, [b]claiming the authority of Plato, whom the Christians revered, [/b]should not only retain the gods but make them an essential part of a philosophical system.[/quote]

[quote]Forerunners of Neoplatonism

Among the more or less eclectic Platonists who are regarded as forerunners of the Neoplatonic school, the most important are Plutarch, Maximus, Apuleius, Aenesidemus, Numenius. The last-mentioned, who flourished towards the end of the second century of the Christian era, had a direct and immediate influence on [b]Plotinus, the first systematic neo-Platonist. [/b]He taught that there are three gods, the Father, the Maker (Demiurgos), and the World. Philo the Jew (see PHILO JUDAEUS), who flourished in the middle of the first century, was also a forerunner of Neoplatonism, although it is difficult to say whether his doctrine of the mediation of the Logos had a direct influence on Plotinus. [/quote]

[quote][b]Plotinus, a native of Lycopolis in Egypt, who lived from 205 to 270 was the first systematic philosopher of the school.[/b][/quote]

[quote]While these philosophical [b]defenders of neo-Platonism were directing their attacks against Christianity,[/b] representatives of the school in the more practical walks of life, and even in high places of authority, carried on a more effective warfare in the name of the school. Hierocles, pro-consul of Bithynia during the reign of Diocletian (284-305), [b]not only persecuted the Christians of his province, [/b]but wrote a work, now lost, entitled "The discourse of a Lover of Truth, against the Christians", setting up the rival claims of neo-Platonic philosophy. He, like Julian the Apostate, Celsus (q.v.), and others, was roused to activity chiefly by the claim which Christianity made to be, not a national religion like Judaism, but a world-wide, or universal, religion. Julian sums up the case of philosophy against Christianity thus: "Divine government is not through a special society (such as the Christian Church) teaching an authoritative doctrine, but through the order of the visible universe and all the variety of civic and national institutions. The underlying harmony of these is to be sought out by free examination, which is philosophy." (Whittaker, "Neo-Platonists", p. 155).[/quote]

[quote][b]Christian thinkers, almost from the beginning of Christian speculation, found in the spiritualism of Plato a powerful aid in defending and maintaining a conception of the human soul which pagan materialism rejected, but to which the Christian Church was irrevocably committed. [/b] All the early refutations of psychological materialism are Platonic. So, too, when the ideas of Plotinus began to prevail, the Christian writers took advantage of the support thus lent to the doctrine that there is a spiritual world more real than the world of matter. Later, there were Christian philosophers, like Nemesius (flourished c. 450), who took over the entire system of neo-Platonism so far as it was considered consonant with Christian dogma.[/quote]

[quote]The works "De Divinis Nominibus", "De hierarchia coelesti", etc., are now admitted to have been written at the end of the fifth, or during the first decades of the sixth, century. They are from the pen of a Christian Platonist, a disciple of Proclus, probably an immediate pupil of that teacher, as is clear from the fact that they embody, not only Proclus's ideas, but even lengthy passages from his writings. [b]The author, whether intentionally on his part, or by some mistake on the part of his readers, came to be identified with Dionysius who is mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles as a convert of St. Paul.[/b] Later, especially in France, he was further identified with Dionysius the first Bishop of Paris. Thus it came about that the works of the Pseudo-Areopagite, after having been used in the East, first by the Monophysites and later by the Catholics, became known in the West and exerted a widespread influence all through the Middle Ages.[/quote]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10742b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10742b.htm[/url]

Edited July 19, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]After that is a quote that says Pope Gregory I in the sixith century named 7 cardinal virtues, 3 that were Christian - faith, hope, and charity - and 4 that were adopted from plato and Pythagoras - Wisdom, justice, courage, and temparance.[/quote]



First off, Christianity can reconcile Plato with Christ but it does not try to reconcile Christ to Plato. This is an important distinction to make when looking at the influence of Plato on Christianity.

I did not find anything that says that Pope Gregory grouped 7 cardinal virtues together. I looked hard and came up with nothing. I did find that Pope Gregory was the first to describe the seven deadly sins.


“Wisdom, justice, courage, and temperance”, these are called the cardinal virtues and they were discovered by Plato. The are in the bible in Wisdom 8:7;

[quote]Or if one loves justice, the fruits of her works are virtues; For she teaches moderation and prudence, justice and fortitude, and nothing in life is more useful for men than these.[/quote]

As for the theological virtues these are from Paul in the 1 Cor 13:13.

[quote]So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.[/quote]

To categorize the theological virtues as “cardinal” would not be wrong in a way. Cardinal means to hinge and the reception of grace, to do virtuous works hinges on the theological virtues. I highly doubt that Pope Gregory would lump moderation, prudence, justice and fortitude together with the theological virtues because they are significantly different. The theological virtues are inherently supernatural while the cardinal virtues are not. I skimmed over [u]Moralia in Job[/u] written by Pope Gregory and he did not list the theological virtues with the cardinal virtues. Here is what I found;





[quote]As we said above, the desert is the cast-off band of impure
spirits, which desert the blessedness of their creator and thus
lose, so to speak, the farmer's cultivating hand.  A violent wind
came from the desert and overwhelmed the house:  because strong
temptation was brought by those impure spirits and it uprooted the
conscience from its former tranquility.  [b]This house rested on four
corners because prudence, temperance, fortitude and justice support
the solid edifice of our mind.  This house stands on its four
cornerposts because every good work builds on these four virtues.[/b]
So also the four rivers of paradise water the land because the
heart is filled with these four virtues and thus cooled from the
heat of carnal desires.  [/quote]

[url="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/gregory.html"]http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/gregory.html[/url]

Edited July 19, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[phatcatholic]

good stuff cure

[Cure of Ars]

This article will be helpful;

[url="http://www.jknirp.com/aug3.htm"]Sex, Sin and Salvation: What Augustine Really Said[/url]

[MorphRC]

Wow a lot has happened since last time ...