Annulment Vs. Divorce

[mulls]

"Every other Church doesn't even care about the state of their parishoners, whether they've been married and divorced, or whatever."

WOW

sorry, that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard.

"Are you allowed to get divorced, remarry, and then still be "saved". Or are all your divorced and re-married parishoners going to hell?"

this sounds rhetorical, so why don't you answer your own question? Or maybe we should just leave the salvation issue between the individual and God.

"If I was baptized wrong, I would not have been baptised."

since you believe baptism is necessary for salvation, do you believe a little baby will go to hell for somebody else's mistake? honestly.

[Aloysius]

"since you believe baptism is necessary for salvation, do you believe a little baby will go to hell for somebody else's mistake? honestly."

~mulls

that's why we have stuff such as "baptism of desire" and "batism of blood"

havn't u learnd anything at phatmass? :P

[mulls]

yep.

it seems like there's a loophole for everything.

[cmotherofpirl]

mulls it is not a loophole.

Marriage is a hassle, divorce is easy, annullments are long and painful.

My marriage was recently annulled after 21 years.

My husband was judged mentally ill at the time of the marriage. He was not capable of committment.

[Cure of Ars]

yep.

it seems like there's a loophole for everything.

Say that to a person who had a valid marriage and is now seperated remarried and can't recieve Communion. This is a tuff situation and I have seen this a lot and many leave the Church because of this.

But I also agree that anullments are getting abused in American. One of the problems is that for the past 20 years people have not been taught the truth on this matter. And honestly I still do not understand what consitutes a invalid sacramental marriage that makes a annulment possible.

The bottom line is that Jesus taught that you could not break a marriage covenant without grave sin.

[[jas]]

"since you believe baptism is necessary for salvation, do you believe a little baby will go to hell for somebody else's mistake? honestly."

                    ~mulls

that's why we have stuff such as "baptism of desire" and "batism of blood"

How can you have your so-called baptism of desire (ie. desiring baptism but unable to have it) when you're a baby?

[Luke2219]

How can you have your so-called baptism of desire (ie. desiring baptism but unable to have it) when you're a baby?

We know of no other means of salvation other than the free gift of God's grace transmitted through baptism. Baptism is the normal way, and the only way we know. But in cases such as these, we must remember that we are bound to the sacraments, but that God does not have such restrictions. God has not revealed to us the method of salvation available to babies who die before they are baptised or babies who are murdered through abortion or genetic research.

We know that it cannot be that these children would go to hell. That is contrary to God's love, mercy, and justice. But without baptism, we don't know how they could go to heaven. We just trust that God has a plan for them, and as such we have peace in our hearts that we will see them in heaven.

It may be possible, that the desire of the parents to baptise their child is sufficient. Or that the innocent children that are slaughtered through abortion are baptised by blood. But even if not, God has it worked out, He just hasn't told us how.

Edited September 7, 2003 by Luke2219

[skuba steve]

MAtthew 19:

3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'

5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?

6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Also, how many men or women could say that they would remain faithful to their spouse for the rest of their lives even if their spouse was not faithful to them? It seems to me that most people in today's culture think that if your spouse cheats on them, then the marriage is over.

The bottom line is that Jesus taught that you could not break a marriage covenant without grave sin.

Jesus said it was okay.....

what do you have to say about that????

Please be careful what you say about divorce.... You may think you are very wise and have all the answers...

but have you been through it??? sure, a lot of it is superficial and i can understand what you're saying, and im not making a statement on the issues your debating, but please be careful what you say....

....i know people who have been divorced because a father was sexually abusing his children....

how can you say to the wife that she is commiting a grave sin to love her children enough to take them away from this man?

Sometimes it is much more deeper than it appears and has caused much more hurt than you can see...

Also, how many people realize that love isn't something you fall in and out of? Love is something you DO even when you don't FEEL like it.

See...that's a nice statement but it could be mega insensitive and insulting....

so please... because you love people, because God had forgiven and forgotten their pasts, because God may be still in the process of healing people, be careful

[Luke2219]

No, I haven't been through a divorce, or a marriage for that matter. But that doesn't mean I'm not qualified to speak on the subject at all. I do realize that some of my statements might be hurtful to some. Thank you for pointing that out and I will take extra care next time. But I also realize that sometimes the truth hurts and if I'm speaking the truth, I might hurt someone's feeling. I've been blessed on several occasions with getting my feelings hurt when they needed to be and I'm a better person for it. It's not that I don't care, I do and as I said, I will be more careful. But I can't water down the message for the sake of not offending anyone.

....i know people who have been divorced because a father was sexually abusing his children....

how can you say to the wife that she is commiting a grave sin to love her children enough to take them away from this man?

In cases were abuse exists or there is any other danger, the Church allows separation and even a civil divorce if necessary. If the children need to be taken away, by all means protect them. The issue comes up when you want to re-marry. My grandmother went through this. She got out of the abusive relationship, got a civil divorce, and then later she sought an annulment.

MAtthew 19:

3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'

5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?

6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

My bible says, "unless the marriage is unlawful." The same thing is said in Matthew 5:32. The Greek word used in both in slightly different, but have been translated the same in my bible (NAB). Mark 10, 11-12 is the same passage but doesn't have this exception. Same with Luke 16:18.

Infidelity may cause a need to separate for a time to work things out, but Jesus also said "...let man not separate." Once a valid marriage takes place, the only thing that can break that bond is death.

[Jake Huether]

I don't understand how this is considered a "loophole". Explain, Mulls, your defninition of "Sacrament". And then explain how you think EVERY Sacrament is valid no matter what happens.

If I'm baptized, as an adult (for the sake of escaping the "infant baptism" war), and the reverend says, "I baptize you in the name of the Holy Spirit". Then was I validly baptized?

And, okay, so you think my question was rhetorical and stupid. So, then it should be REALLY easy to answer. What does your church teach about divorce, and how do they handle "saved" people who are re-married? Or are they "saved"? I mean, if you have no "loopholes" then that means that every person who was divorced and remarried is in grave sin (i.e. committing perpetual adultary).

For the Catholic Church it isn't a loophole, it is a fact. For the Catholic laity, it may become a loophole - but that's only when they abuse it as such.

[Unshackled]

I'm sorry, I must have missed something here. I make a committment to God and then change my mind. As long as I can convince some people in black dresses that I didn't really mean it, then in God's eyes I am now released from my promise? Who is playing GOD here? :huh:

[cmotherofpirl]

If you are not capable of making a committment, does it count?

Can two children get married? Can a mentally ill person make a committment? If one person lies to God, is the other person bound? If a person hold a gun to your head and forces you to marry, are you bound?

And concerning your rudeness, remember Jesus wore a dress as well.

[[jas]]

And concerning your rudeness, remember Jesus wore a dress as well.

Shall I pull out the question about being culturally relevant again?

[Jake Huether]

I'm sorry, I must have missed something here.

Yup. You must have.

I make a committment to God and then change my mind.

Um, that was the whole point. The Church ONLY proclaims a marriage invalid if you DON'T make a committment to God. If you do make that committment, then there is nothing the Church (or anyone else) can do.

As long as I can convince some people in black dresses that I didn't really mean it, then in God's eyes I am now released from my promise?

Okay, I will ignore the rude comment about CASSOCKS - which in my opinion are da bomb.

You can lie to the Church, but the Church will not err on this matter. If your marriage is valid, the Church won't issue a statement of annullment. It takes much more than just "you" to convince the Church of an invalid Sacrament. That is why the investigative process takes so long. The Church will not speak unless she is certain of the validity or invalidity of your marriage.

Who is playing GOD here? 

Good question. I would think it is US! When we lie our way into a "marriage", then we pretent that we know more than God. But God knows the "marriage" is not really a marriage. And what God knows, he reveals to His Bride, the Church. :)