Non-catholic Questions....

[cmotherofpirl]

All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

17

so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

THe catch is the letter is referring to the Old Testament. THere was no new Testament at this point. Paul was dead in around 67AD, and all what we now consider "scripture" was not even all written yet.

So your argument doesn't work.

Edited September 4, 2003 by cmotherofpirl

[dUSt]

This point is a little too complex to deal with before we get some of the broader, more vital, issues out of the way.  However, Paul certainly does not exclude any new Scripture, as his quote of Luke shows that he does not believe in a close canon, and he simply says "all Scripture" generally, not "the Law and the Prophets," or something like that.

I never said Paul excluded any new scripture. We don't disagree here. I was simply pointing out that you misinterpreted this to mean complete scripture--and there's certainly no grounds for that.

If you want to know the basic outline of an argument I would make that he has in mind the completed canon:  Paul is preparing Timothy for the post-apostolic age, and throughout these two epistles he seems to be looking at the time after the apostles and prophets had laid the foundation (Ephesians 2:20) -- meaning, founded the Church and stored up the deposit of truth once-for-all delivered to the saints in the Scripture.  So, for instance, he doesn't intend to say that Philemon (alone) makes the man of God complete, equipped for every good work.

Okay, again, it doesn't mean the completed scripture like you implied. This is all speculation, based on extra-Biblical reasoning.

I don't see how "complete" and "every good work" do not constitute sufficiency.  If you are "complete" -- lacking nothing -- how can it be insufficient?  If you are prepared for every good work, how can it be insufficient?

hahaha... There you go--back to that word complete again. I've already shown where you added this word for your own purposes. It's not implied in this scripture.

This verse doesn't imply that scripture is infallible either. (Catholics do believe scripture to be infallible)

(Me) It is breathed out by God, and God cannot err.

Again, this verse does not define what is/what isn't scripture, so it's impossible (using this verse) to determine what is/isn't infallible.

Where is the evidence?  I've seen lots of Catholics prove that the Church has authority.  However, where is infallible authority?  And, why does 1 Timothy 3:15 say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, rather than the Church is truth itself?  Jesus said, "Thy Word is Truth" (John 17:17), and the Scripture is God's Word (2 Timothy 3:16).  The Bible places Scripture on an echelon of authority higher than the Church.

You must be able to prove that "Thy Word is Truth" is limited strictly to written scripture. It certainly is not. "Thy Word" is all the teachings of Christ: The Bible, Apostolic teaching, Sacred Tradition, The Church, etc.

If the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth, I still ask: what is truth? "The Word" is truth. Therefore, the Church is the foundation and pillar of "The Word". It's part of it--not separated from it. This is basic stuff.

That is, Scripture according to the Roman Catholic interpretation.  However, if the Church controls the meaning of Scripture (as she does by claiming infallible interpretive authority), how can the Church's teachings and traditions be subordinate to Scripture?  They cannot.  Rather, the Scripture is subordinate to the Church.

Neither is subordinate to other, as they work together to form the Word of God.

The Church is found wherever there is fidelity to Word and Sacrament.  Throughout the first millenium, this was virtually indistinguishable from the Roman Catholic Church.

I assumed this would be your answer. I agree.

Correct, although I hope you understand that what you just said ("the Church was infallibly led") is not equivalent to the Roman Catholic position.  I've explained this in more detail in the relevant thread.

I don't recognize the difference of the Church being infallibly led then, and now.

This proves that all Scripture is inspired; the NT books are Scripture; therefore, they are inspired.

True enough--but it doesn't define what and what is not scripture. For that, we rely on the Church. Again--this shows how Scripture and Tradition are not separatable.

God bless.

[MC Just]

Where in the bible, does the bible teach that the bible alone is our authority for faith and morals?

somewhere in the back... i think it's in the same place that talks about purgatory, holy water and stained glass windows.

there's also something about gathering in crowds to witness a statue of Mary that's leaking oil....

Look... you can put your faith in the teaching and tradition of others that has been passed down to you for 2000 years or so... and you can put your faith in all your doctrine and what the pope says is right

...that's fine by me...

but if you don't mind, I'm gonna put my faith in a God who remains the same yesterday, today and forever.... i'm gonna go straight to the source to find out how he wants me to live my life....and i'm gonna have faith that he loves me enough to make sure that the bible that he tells me to live by, is from him...

so, back to your questions... i can't prove any of them... but if everything was so easy to believe....then you wouldn't need any faith at all.... seriously...

Purgatory and Holy Water is Biblical, and theres nothing wrong with stained glass wndows.

Holy Water

Ex. 29:4; Lev. 8:6 - Aaron and his sons were washed in holy water in their consecration to the priesthood. Thus, we see the use of holy water during the beginning of salvation history.

Ex. 30:18-19 - The Lord requires Aaron and his sons to wash their hands and feet in holy water before they offered sacrifices to Him. The Church uses holy water for various purposes, and holy water fonts are generally located at the entrace of Catholic churches to be used before the sacrifice of Christ is offered to the Father.

Num. 5:17 - In an earthen vessel he shall meanwhile put some Holy Water

Num. 8:7 - the Lord says to "sprinkle them with the water of remission." The Lord uses water, a physical property, to convey His supernatural property of grace.

1 Kings 7:38-39 - In King Solomon's temple, there were ten large basins of holy water. Holy water has always been used in the context of worship.

John 13:4-10 - the Lord uses water to wash the apostles feet to prepare them for their sacramental priesthood.

John 19:34 - water and blood flowed from Jesus' pierced side on the Cross. The Church uses holy water as a symbol of our Lord's life giving water that flowed from His sacred Heart, and as the property which brings about the power of Jesus Christ Himself, in baptism, the Eucharist, and other sacred rites of the Church.

Purgatory

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for more than 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful inDouche.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, "but only" through fire. The phrase "but only" in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.

1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.

1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins.

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

Edited September 4, 2003 by Mc-Just†

[VeraMaria]

I think I'm going to open a Ironmonk and Bro Adam board.

good idea! ;)

[VeraMaria]

If only we had some chairs to throw...

YEah..... :o

[Brother Adam]

1 I'd like to see the Bro Adam/Iron Monk Board not to mention I'd hand out printed copies to friends.

Bro Adam, if iron seeks to prove catholicism and comes up with convincing evidence, and you seek to disprove him and you come up with "the squirrels" which is logically as valid a Q-source (ask if you don't know what that means) then it would seem to suggest that Catholicism is true, until you can provide convincing evidence against it that cannot be refuted which of course I invite you to do (some of the strongest catholic apologists started from that premise) allow me to suggest starting points for your search 1. The bible 2. The beliefs of the early church (which means the earliest documentation you can find look for pre-Luther if you can cuz Iron certainly can)

these are valid questions as the concern the majority of attacks against catholicism so it would seem that the anti-catholic sword is now being turned against the hand that wielded it

Aww shucks, It all comes down to what you choose to have faith in, my friend.

[Good Friday]

Aww shucks, It all comes down to what you choose to have faith in, my friend

But see, I don't understand this mentality. Ultimately, there's nothing we can say that would make any of you Catholics. None of our proof matters to you. Because you're all waiting for God to lead you. Is that right? And you feel that you've been led, by God presumably, to the Baptist church. Is that accurate?

What I want to know is why your being led to the Baptist church is any different than a Buddhist being led to Buddhism, a Wiccan being led to Wicca, a Jew being led to Judaism, etc. Of course there is a difference, the Baptist church is Christian. But my point is that people from all those groups no doubt feel "led" to them. Do you really believe they are led to them by God? If not, what makes you different? How can you be sure that you were led to the Baptist church by God? And how can we be sure?

I'm sure that I was led to the Catholic Church by God because I have the facts to back up my conversion. If y'all lack these facts, I think you need to be considering if you were really led to your respective denominations, and if so... who led you there.

I don't mean this harshly, though I do recognize that it looks harsh. But I'm honestly curious as to why you feel that God has led you to your respective denominations, and how this feeling of being led differs from people of all other denominations and religions throughout the world. Surely God can't be leading people to all of them?

[Dave]

If y'all lack these facts, I think you need to be considering if you were really led to your respective denominations, and if so... who led you there.

I don't mean this harshly, though I do recognize that it looks harsh. But I'm honestly curious as to why you feel that God has led you to your respective denominations, and how this feeling of being led differs from people of all other denominations and religions throughout the world. Surely God can't be leading people to all of them?

You're absolutely right, Nathan. As I've said many times on this board, the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion. And yet that's what all these denominations have caused. It's made people wonder, "Who's right?" As a result, look at all the church-hopping and new denominations being formed!

Too many people confused their feelings and opinions with God's leadership. Granted, no one said it was easy to tell the difference 100% of the time, so that's why we have the Catholic Church to tell us what truth is.

[ayed]

In the Name Allah , the Most compassionate, the Most gracious

Hi! My phtmassmates? Are you right?

I am not sure , so far , whether you actually understand my English or not .Just tell me in case . I hope Allah to help me to be clear in my writings .

I have some questions about your holy books.

Mind you that I respect and appreciate your views , time spent and efforts here.

1-Jesus(Allah’s peace be upon him)answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only. "The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. For it is written:" 'He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully; they will lift you up in their hands,so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. "Jesus answered…”Do not put the Lord your God to the test. "

(Luke 4:8~13)

2-Then Jesus, having lifted his hand in token of silence, said: `Verily ye have erred greatly, O Israelites, in calling me, a man, your God. And I fear that God may for this give heavy plague upon the holy city, handing it over in servitude to strangers. O a thousand times accursed Satan, that hath moved you to this”

3-Iesa said“I confess before heaven, and I call to witness everything that dwelleth upon the earth, that I am a stranger to all that ye have said; seeing that I am man, born of mortal woman, subject to the judgement of God, suffering the miseries of eating and sleeping, of cold and heat, like other men. Wherefore when God shall come to judge, my words like a sword shall pierce each one [ of them] that believe me to be more than man.'

4-“Jesus drew near to the priest with reverence, but he was wishful to bow himself down and worship Jesus, when Jesus cried out: “Beware of that which thou doest, priest of the living God! Sin not against our God!”

Have my warm greetings,

Ayed ,

ayed4all@hotmail.com

[Brother Adam]

It all comes down to a leap of faith- whatever denomination you belong to. Read "Letters between a Catholic and Evangical". Seriously. I think it will help shed some understanding of the protestant position.

[Jake Huether]

Ayed,

You cited a source for your first point. But points 2-4 I'm not familiar with. Can you cite a source for these quotes. I don't recall Jesus ever saying he was NOT God. I only remeber him hiding from the Jews who wanted to stone him when he said He WAS God.

[Robyn]

I'm sure that I was led to the Catholic Church by God because I have the facts to back up my conversion.  If y'all lack these facts, I think you need to be considering if you were really led to your respective denominations, and if so... who led you there. 

  Surely God can't be leading people to all of them?

ok...personally, I don't need facts to "back up my conversion".

Why? Because much of my faith is backed up by...FAITH! I know this won't get you believing what I believe....however....I'll quote the bible as "my facts" and apologise coz I can't find the verses in a hurry....

HEBREWS: Now faith is being sure of things unseen...

...Blessed are those who believe without seeing

and as I've stated many times before.... I have the holy spirit who guides me and convicts me. If I was on a deserted island with no bible or any Christian literature, I'd still believe.

The holy sprit and God reach you where you are.

Surely God can't be leading people to all of them?

Why not? I know Catholics who are more pentecostal in their beliefs, but they prefer the Catholic services....I know Catholics who prefer the Catholic beliefs, but prefer the Pentecostal services....

In the end...we're all Christian...

God reaches us where we are! If he wanted me to join a Catholic church, he'd show me.

Actually, at the start of the year I wanted to change churches....but stay in teh pentecostal area....but the holy spirit led me back to my original church. He allowed me to taste "the grass on the other side" but he kept convicting me to return...and I wasn't happy until I did.

[ironmonk]

robyn,

God Bless, God does call us, God wants us close to Him...

God will bring you to the Catholic Church if He wants... everything is the Will of God. God so wills that we have freewill...

A couple of verses that I ask you to think long and hard on... Meditate on them for hours if need be... I also ask that you read the New Testament straight through, at least one chapter a day, meditate on the messages, take notes about things that catch your eye... (and keep reading it over and over... the more you read it and let it soak in, the wider your eyes open)

Here are the two verses....

Acts 20:30

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

2 Peter 3:15

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,

16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.

If a church is not the One True Church; then it's perverted truth.

If we really Love Jesus, wouldn't we want the whole Truth?

Ponder, meditate, open your heart and use your head....

Remember, worship is not meant for our entertainment... It's meant for reverence of our Lord.

God reaches us where we are! If he wanted me to join a Catholic church, he'd show me.

Maybe that's why He brought you to this site.

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary,

ironmonk

Edited September 7, 2003 by ironmonk

[Robyn]

Thanks for your concern. I'm not going to do that because I see no point.

As with you, I'm at the point where NOTHING anybody says will change my beliefs...but I'm here to learn and be challenged.

Actually, sort of in your defense...if I do read and meditate as you suggest, it will only keep my view on God. Every time I read those verses I can SEE examples of the people spoken about...and I see ever MORE how much I am where God wants me to be.

There is a verse in the bible...I'd love to add it here, but I'd rather look at it first...sort of contradicts and supports your view...

[skuba steve]

everything is the Will of God.

Ironmonk... why do bad things happen to people??? Why is it God's will that Children get abused and people are starving in this world?