Your Opinions On The Occult Wanted.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 02:50 PM'] I have a question for you. At one point does a person draw the line and realize that the envelope is being pushed too far in fantasy stories?

I listen to rock n roll, but at what point does a rock n roll song go too far? Should I let my children listen to ALL rock n roll?

Is there a point to where television goes to far with sex topics. We all grew up with seeing people laying in bed together and kissing and making love. At what point do those shows go to far?

We need to have boundaries that we do not cross. Excess is never a good thing.

The difference between Harry Potter and Puff the Magic Dragon is a getting drunk versus one glass of wine.

And some people who have had a history of addiction to the occult should not read those books like an alchoholic should not have that first drink....even though wine is not bad in an of itself. [/quote]
A book or movie crosses the line anytime the bad guys are portrayed as good, or are portrayed as winning.

If you are an alcoholic you stay away from wine.
But you don't villify everybody else who drinks.

If you are drawn to the occult, you avoid the topic.
But you would have to avoid a lot of biographies of the Saints as well.
St Teresa encountered the devil one night in her room.
She said "O its just you", rolled over and went back to sleep.
The devil has already lost the battle, these are minor skirmiches.

There is nothing wrong with boundaries, but you pick your battles with care. You don't cross off all fantasy literature because it might have a witch in it, or some reference to the supernatural.


The Catholic movie and book reviewers liked Harry Potter. Bishop Chaput of Denver said they were fine. The are far worse books than HP out there.
My daughter who loves HP, is considering a religious vocation.

[XIX]

Hmmmmm...

I think we have all seen that it is very debatable as to weather Harry Potter should or should not be read.

But the bottom line is that it can not actually help your soul by reading it. It's not going to improve your relationship with God. The best you can hope for is a wash.

And frankly, I don't think it is worth playing games when sould are on the line. We truly have no idea how much power we hae to influence others.

[p0lar_bear]

If they choose not to include it in the [i]required[/i] reading, then that may be a good choice. I don't think there is any problem, however, with them being recommended or acceptable reading.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 03:10 PM'] So then this book should never be part of required reading in a school then if a parent has a conscientious objection. It should be removed from the list then and left up to the parent, not the educators. So the catholic board of education is doing the right thing in considering removing it. [/quote]
If your children are learning about fantasy literature its fine.
If someone thinks it should be part of classics , that would be wrong.

[mmmerf]

[quote name='XIX' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:16 PM']
But the bottom line is that it can not actually help your soul by reading it. It's not going to improve your relationship with God. The best you can hope for is a wash.
[/quote]
By this logic I should avoid club sandwiches also. Which is madness. Complete madness.

-_- I'm jus' sayin', is all.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:06 PM'] You know what I mean though. Whatever. [/quote]
yeah I know. it was just FYI (For Your Information)

I enjoy making myself sound smart. so sue me. :nanny:

Pax

[ladybug]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:03 PM'] If it is a problem for a particular person, then perhaps [i]that person[/i] should not read it. It is wrong, however, to then say that it is evil. To take your own analogy, not everyone is an alcoholic, so while alcohol may cause trouble for some, it is not evil.

[/quote]
So, if it's wrong for some and a problem for some, then others should not openly flaunt it around us and call us uptight or mean names for standing up for our children. We should not be told we are 'uncool' or 'out of touch'.

I should be able to take my child to a night club with people getting drunk then, since we are only watching and not actually doing it ourselves.

We can go to a friends masterbation orgy as long as they conceal their bodies as they are doing it, we are only observers and are not actually participating and I can just explain to my children that the church says it's a sin and not to actually do it themselves.

Second hand smoke won't harm my child. Let's go to a smoking party with my kids.

We all played with Ouija boards as children. As long as don't touch the ouija board ourselves and I am there to explain that they are trying to contact the dead in a good way, and we are only observers at a friends house who are doing the ouija board then it will be just fun adventurous entertainment. As long as we are only watching, and not doing.

(coming from someone who got hooked on ouija from a christian friends birthday party where I was only an observer..at first)

[XIX]

[quote name='mmmerf' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:20 PM'] By this logic I should avoid club sandwiches also. Which is madness. Complete madness.

-_- I'm jus' sayin', is all. [/quote]
Club sandwiches can't drive a wedge between you and God...not realistically, anyway. In fact, I would imagine that some of them are healthy.

I mean, there is a danger (LOL, dangers are everywhere, part of our human condition) to [i]relying[/i] on the taste of food for happiness or fulfillment. But you still have to eat to stay alive. Avoiding all food altogether wouldn't be very pro-life.

I'm liable to change my opinion on this, BTW.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='XIX' date='Jul 15 2004, 03:16 PM'] Hmmmmm...

I think we have all seen that it is very debatable as to weather Harry Potter should or should not be read.

But the bottom line is that it can not actually help your soul by reading it. It's not going to improve your relationship with God. The best you can hope for is a wash.

And frankly, I don't think it is worth playing games when sould are on the line. We truly have no idea how much power we hae to influence others. [/quote]
Actually I disagree with you about helping your soul.

HP [so far] brings the battle between good and evil into sharp focus. Most people think the battle for souls is some big distant battle they are not part of. HP makes it personal. WE are in the trenches, and are part of the battle. Every day WE must struggle to be good, and WE do influence people by our actions. Most of the time we don't have all the clues, we muddle thru. And the ending can be messy, and bad things do happen to good people.

HP shows how evil wins if good people do nothing.

This is one of the most important lessons anybody can learn.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 03:25 PM'] So, if it's wrong for some and a problem for some, then others should not openly flaunt it around us and call us uptight or mean names for standing up for our children. We should not be told we are 'uncool' or 'out of touch'.

I should be able to take my child to a night club with people getting drunk then, since we are only watching and not actually doing it ourselves.

We can go to a friends masterbation orgy as long as they conceal their bodies as they are doing it, we are only observers and are not actually participating and I can just explain to my children that the church says it's a sin and not to actually do it themselves.

Second hand smoke won't harm my child. Let's go to a smoking party with my kids.

We all played with Ouija boards as children.  As long as don't touch the ouija board ourselves and I am there to explain that they are trying to contact the dead in a good way, and we are only observers at a friends house who are doing the ouija board then it will be just fun adventurous entertainment. As long as we are only watching, and not doing.

(coming from someone who got hooked on ouija from a christian friends birthday party where I was only an observer..at first) [/quote]
So Harry Potter should be banned because a few people might have a problem with it? That's just like banning alcohol because some people are alcoholics. Or banning Huck Finn because some people are so offended by the use of the n-word in the book that they can't see past it (note: I would never use the n-word, but I recognize its use as a historical reality put into a good story). Should we ban Little House on the Prairie because native Americans might be offended by a book that shows western expansion as a good thing rather than an incroachment on their land? Or Isben's A Doll's House because it challenges traditional gender roles in the home? How about King Arthur stories because they portray insest? Or The Count of Monte Cristo because the 'hero' decieves everyone, sets out to destroy people and has a concubine?

Putting reading Harry Potter on level with masturbation is simply ridiculous and makes your position less credible.

Fantasy novels (even those including references to magic) are not inherently evil. The Church has never declared them as such and never will.


Edit: Oh, and even though my parents let us read all sorts of fantasy literature, I never played with Ouija boards because I knew that while fantasy magic was ok, Ouija boards and real witchcraft was bad.

Edited July 15, 2004 by p0lar_bear

[ladybug]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:54 PM'] So Harry Potter should be banned because a few people might have a problem with it? That's just like banning alcohol because some people are alcoholics. Or banning Huck Finn because some people are so offended by the use of the n-word in the book that they can't see past it (note: I would never use the n-word, but I recognize its use as a historical reality put into a good story). Should we ban Little House on the Prairie because native Americans might be offended by a book that shows western expansion as a good thing rather than an incroachment on their land? Or Isben's A Doll's House because it challenges traditional gender roles in the home? How about King Arthur stories because they portray insest? Or The Count of Monte Cristo because the 'hero' decieves everyone, sets out to destroy people and has a concubine?

Putting reading Harry Potter on level with masturbation is simply ridiculous and makes your position less credible.

Fantasy novels (even those including references to magic) are not inherently evil. The Church has never declared them as such and never will.


Edit: Oh, and even though my parents let us read all sorts of fantasy literature, I never played with Ouija boards because I knew that while fantasy magic was ok, Ouija boards and real witchcraft was bad. [/quote]
OKAY, you guys win. I'll go buy the Harry Potter series and read it to my kids. I guess I am damaging them by not allowing them to participate in every one of the latest popular trends. Those catholic parents who worry are just too conservative and uptight. I'm sorry, please forgive me for not having the same opinion as all other catholics. HARRY POTTER HERE I COME! WOOOO HOOOOOO!

By the way, the Ouija board party I went to was catholic kids doing it, and the only one who said anything to warn me was my Pentecostal friend. But, pentecostals are heretics, so she couldn't possibly know anything. The other catholic kids were doing it, and their catholic parents were there supervising, so it must be okay right?

National Catholic Register
Catholic parents speaking about Harry Potter
[url="http://www.ncregister.com/Register_News/112801harry.htm"]http://www.ncregister.com/Register_News/112801harry.htm[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 03:25 PM'] So, if it's wrong for some and a problem for some, then others should not openly flaunt it around us and call us uptight or mean names for standing up for our children. We should not be told we are 'uncool' or 'out of touch'.

I should be able to take my child to a night club with people getting drunk then, since we are only watching and not actually doing it ourselves.

We can go to a friends masterbation orgy as long as they conceal their bodies as they are doing it, we are only observers and are not actually participating and I can just explain to my children that the church says it's a sin and not to actually do it themselves.

Second hand smoke won't harm my child. Let's go to a smoking party with my kids.

We all played with Ouija boards as children. As long as don't touch the ouija board ourselves and I am there to explain that they are trying to contact the dead in a good way, and we are only observers at a friends house who are doing the ouija board then it will be just fun adventurous entertainment. As long as we are only watching, and not doing.

(coming from someone who got hooked on ouija from a christian friends birthday party where I was only an observer..at first) [/quote]
If we run our lives be trying not to offend someone we will have no life at all. Should I take off my crucifix as not to offend atheists? Should I hide my holy pictures as not to offend visitors to my house?
Almost everyone here is a conservative faithful Catholic, and you seem to be implying we are less than faithful becuase we enjoy HP.

I don't recall anyone calling you mean or uptight.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 04:11 PM'] OKAY, you guys win. I'll go buy the Harry Potter series and read it to my kids. I guess I am damaging them by not allowing them to participate in every one of the latest popular trends. Those catholic parents who worry are just too conservative and uptight. I'm sorry, please forgive me for not having the same opinion as all other catholics. HARRY POTTER HERE I COME! WOOOO HOOOOOO!

By the way, the Ouija board party I went to was catholic kids doing it, and the only one who said anything to warn me was my Pentecostal friend. But, pentecostals are heretics, so she couldn't possibly know anything. The other catholic kids were doing it, and their catholic parents were there supervising, so it must be okay right?

National Catholic Register
Catholic parents speaking about Harry Potter
[url="http://www.ncregister.com/Register_News/112801harry.htm"]http://www.ncregister.com/Register_News/112801harry.htm[/url] [/quote]
I think you are missing the point.

You don't have to read HP to your kids,that is your personal opinon of the books, fine.

Don't condemn others who enjoy them.

[ladybug]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 15 2004, 02:17 PM'] I think you are missing the point.

You don't have to read HP to your kids,that is your personal opinon of the books, fine.

Don't condemn others who enjoy them. [/quote]
So, if I enjoy doing a ouija board, no one should condemn me either right?

Is it up to me to do the ouija board with no intervention? Do my fellow catholics have no right to say anything?

Oh yeah, I forgot. I'm NOT my brothers keeper. "Do what ye will, harm none." Whatever floats your boat. To each his own.

Edited July 15, 2004 by ladybug

[ladybug]

[quote name='XIX' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:16 PM'] But the bottom line is that it can not actually help your soul by reading it. It's not going to improve your relationship with God. The best you can hope for is a wash.

[/quote]
Exactly.

At BEST...a wash.

Middle ground - being desensetized

At worst, the child could have a tendency to turn it into something more.

I'm concerned about the latter.

It's a gamble.

I can't force anyone to not read them. I'm not judging them personally. But there is nothing wrong with making a moral judgement.

Moral judgements and being judgemental are too seperate things.

And my warnings come from love, not hate.

Just like my Pentecostal friend that said "We shouldn't do that ouija board". But I did it anyway, and she was still my friend.

She still stands out in my mind after all of the years though as someone who cared about my soul. I have to respect what she did for me, even if I didn't listen.