Your Opinions On The Occult Wanted.

[Catholic_4_Life]

I never said the occult wasn't real. What I said was "reading a book of fantasy doesn't lead me to the occult"...

Part of the problem with America today is that we need to lighten up! Thanks to the sex abuse scandalls we know have to go through FBI background checks to work with the youth. I don't mind that, I have nothing to hide, but its frustrating that due to a small percentage of problems, the masses have to suffer.

Also, I can no longer council a youth "alone"...that doesn't bother me, I would rather have another adult there so that we can both help the youth out. Problem with that is, most of the kids don't want to talk to "multiple" adults, they want to confide in one.

I was on a youth trip once and I saw some kids doing something I thought that they probably shouldn't be doing. I went over to them to tell them to stop, and guess what? A priest was the one doing it! I realized then that I had to lighten up a little...I felt like such an old foogy! So I joined them and we got into a water fight. The kids had such a blast, and so did I.

I know the occult is real. I know that Satan is real. I know that Harry Potter is not. It's a BOOK of fictional characters doing things that can not be done...and even if some of the spells ARE real, I am not worried. I have strong roots in my family, and we know the truth...that God will prevail.

God bless,

Steven

[Catholic_4_Life]

BTW...I voted that yes, witchcraft is a sin. I know it is...I know poeple in my town who practice it, and I pray for them constantly.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Christina' date='Jul 15 2004, 11:38 AM'] Thank you for your post. Very well said.


I keep seeing people say, "it's not real" or "it's make believe." Witchcraft and Magic are very real and very dangerous. You can loose your soul if you practice it. Why would you want to expose your children to it? I just don't understand. [/quote]
I never said witchcraft is make believe or not real, just the witchcraft portrayed in the HP books. I think that goes for pretty much everyone else on the phorum too (though I could be wrong).

I can read a book about, say... the underground railroad, know that the events in the book are not real, yet still acknowledge that the underground railroad was real. I can watch Air Force One, know that Harrison Ford is not the president, but still know there is a president.

If a child read the Hardy Boys, they see teenage boys investigating murders and fighting crime. You can let children read and enjoy them. There are people who really do commit murder and people really do catch them. But if a real child tried to do what the Hardy Boys do, they would quickly end up dead. Let the kid read the books, but let them know that if they see something like this, they should go to an adult for help, not try to catch the guy on their own.

In Pirates of the Caribbean, pirates (who raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer their weasley black guts out) are shown as good. Of course doing those things are bad, but the movie is makebelieve. You can have a child watch that movie, even like Jack Sparrow (honestly, who doesn't?) and still be a good, moral, Catholic child.

Explain to me how the wizardry shown in HP is evil while the wizardry in LOTR, or Cinderella for that matter, is not?

[ladybug]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 10:26 AM'] I never said witchcraft is make believe or not real, just the witchcraft portrayed in the HP books. I think that goes for pretty much everyone else on the phorum too (though I could be wrong).

I can read a book about, say... the underground railroad, know that the events in the book are not real, yet still acknowledge that the underground railroad was real. I can watch Air Force One, know that Harrison Ford is not the president, but still know there is a president.

If a child read the Hardy Boys, they see teenage boys investigating murders and fighting crime. You can let children read and enjoy them. There are people who really do commit murder and people really do catch them. But if a real child tried to do what the Hardy Boys do, they would quickly end up dead. Let the kid read the books, but let them know that if they see something like this, they should go to an adult for help, not try to catch the guy on their own.

In Pirates of the Caribbean, pirates (who raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer their weasley black guts out) are shown as good. Of course doing those things are bad, but the movie is makebelieve. You can have a child watch that movie, even like Jack Sparrow (honestly, who doesn't?) and still be a good, moral, Catholic child.
[/quote]
"Explain to me how the wizardry shown in HP is evil while the wizardry in LOTR, or Cinderella for that matter, is not?"

In Cinderella, it is a fairy godmother doing it and it's more of a light reference to the supernatural, and does not say if it's witchcraft or not. I could be a miracle. A faerie is an imaginary character and we know there are no real faeries.

I have not done much research into the Lord of the Rings, but from what I heard it's not witchcraft they are doing, but something spontaneous that comes from God.

In Harry Potter it's very intense and clear that it's witchcraft, and all about a school of witchcraft and wizardry, and glorifies indoctrination into witchcraft and going through levels in a secret society, and it's more of occult in origin and has intense occult symbolism in it....like the lightening bolt is a common known occult symbol for the antichrist.

The very nature of the symbol, the lightning bolt, while known as a Satanic S, actually holds the same occult meaning as the Tau cross," which was the emblem of 'generative power, or eternal transmigrating life...The Tau is the Thoth, the Teut, the Teutates of the Druids....the tau cross is actually the symbol of the pagan slain and risen god, Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:13-14). It's also the symbol of Zeus and the symbol of power over others.

And it's curious that it's on Harry Potters forehead. Why the forehead?

There are shape shifters in the story, divination involving dead spirits, familiar spirits, wiccan chants, herbology and potions, possession, palmistry, ancient runes, numerology, astrology, charms, fire omens, spell books, scrying, etc.... all of these things are in the book and are hardly an innocent Cinderella fairy story.

People who are promoting this book are not familiar with the occult...although they are well meaning good people. The head exorcist of our church IS familiar with the occult as he came out of a past in the occult, and he says Satan's fingerprints are all over it. I believe the head exorcist.

But if a person doesn't know what they don't know then you can't really judge them. But, once a person knows they cannot continue.

Lev 20
6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote]The very nature of the symbol, the lightning bolt, while known as a Satanic S, actually holds the same occult meaning as the Tau cross," which was the emblem of 'generative power, or eternal transmigrating life...The Tau is the Thoth, the Teut, the Teutates of the Druids....the tau cross is actually the symbol of the pagan slain and risen god, Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:13-14). It's also the symbol of Zeus and the symbol of power over others.
[/quote]

Does that mean the movie Joe Vs the Volcano is evil too...a lightning symbol shows up repeatedly in the movie...

Are Franciscan's evil because they use the tau? Is rebirthflame (on the forum) evil because he/she uses the triquerta as an avatar (the triquerta was originally a sign for a celtic goddess)?

Maybe JK Rowling chose a lightning bolt because she knows someone with a lightning bolt scar. (My sister has one from falling off the stairs).

[quote]I have not done much research into the Lord of the Rings, but from what I heard it's not witchcraft they are doing, but something spontaneous that comes from God. [/quote]

You might want to read the books...Gandalf is a [i]wizard[/i] as is Sauraman. Gandalf is good, Sauraman is not. (hmmm...kind of like Dumbledore and Voldemort). They need their staffs to do their magic (HP needs a wand). They use incantations too.

In Cinderella, the fairy godmother has a wand, says an incantation, and magical things happen. A fairy is a magical creature; one cannot become a fairy...(in HP, you can't choose to become a wizard).

[mmmerf]

This is a pretty tough call for me. I said witchcraft is a sin, but the question is not really complete - knowingly resorting to witchcraft is a sin. It's real, and it's really wrong.

That being said, I have a friend who is a Pagan, (i think) a Wiccan. This is someone who seeks what is good and honest, but happens to be part of a non-christian religion. While I know that the Gospel is true, she does not have that knowledge. (And me telling her doesn't change that, darn the difference between 'knowledge' and 'information'.) She's not a bad person, and I can't honestly say she is different than a friend who was Hindu or Bhuddist. And it isn't a sin to be Bhuddist if Bhuddism is all you've ever accepted as true.

Do I pray for her? Yes. Do I hope she'll come around? Of course. Is she sinning? I don't think so. If I so much as picked up a deck of Tarot cards, I know I'd be sinning, much more if I attended a reading or tried to use them myself. But I am culpable because of my knowledge, and she is innocent because of her ignorance.

Is that fair?

The exception to this argument is (of course) S*tanism, but I would call S*tanists ones who [b]knowingly[/b] set themselves up in opposition to Christ.

...and losers. I'd also call them losers.

Blessed be Jesus Christ, true God and true man. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen.

Cheers,

Dave

[ladybug]

Here is a video by a lay apologetic and EWTN personality about the dangers of Harry Potter.
[url="http://www.marianland.com/jeremiah_harrypottemain.html"]http://www.marianland.com/jeremiah_harrypottemain.html[/url]

It is supposed to address the difference between books like Harry Potter and other fairytales and fantasy.

I think it's worth checking into if there is any bit of discomfort or doubt.

The church has NOT made an official ruling about it yet, it was just opinion, and the Vatican representative made it clear that it's only his opinion and he is not speaking on behalf of the vatican.

With so many concerned catholic parents, we should have some sort of voice in our church and not be laughed at and dismissed as too conservative and uptight, or whatever.

I personally am concerned because I had gotten sucked into the occult and that's a dark part of my past and I KNOW how easy it is for subtle things to influence your mind without you realizing it.

[ladybug]

[quote name='mmmerf' date='Jul 15 2004, 11:54 AM'] This is a pretty tough call for me. I said witchcraft is a sin, but the question is not really complete - knowingly resorting to witchcraft is a sin. It's real, and it's really wrong.

That being said, I have a friend who is a Pagan, (i think) a Wiccan. This is someone who seeks what is good and honest, but happens to be part of a non-christian religion. While I know that the Gospel is true, she does not have that knowledge. (And me telling her doesn't change that, darn the difference between 'knowledge' and 'information'.) She's not a bad person, and I can't honestly say she is different than a friend who was Hindu or Bhuddist. And it isn't a sin to be Bhuddist if Bhuddism is all you've ever accepted as true.

Do I pray for her? Yes. Do I hope she'll come around? Of course. Is she sinning? I don't think so. If I so much as picked up a deck of Tarot cards, I know I'd be sinning, much more if I attended a reading or tried to use them myself. But I am culpable because of my knowledge, and she is innocent because of her ignorance.

Is that fair?

The exception to this argument is (of course) S*tanism, but I would call S*tanists ones who [b]knowingly[/b] set themselves up in opposition to Christ.

...and losers. I'd also call them losers.

Blessed be Jesus Christ, true God and true man. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen.

Cheers,

Dave [/quote]
I have wiccan friends too, and family members...and they just don't understand. I show them the scriptures and they just don't believe in the bible. They do not believe there is such a thing as evil spirits or the devil, and that the only spirits they consult are good and of God.

So, I don't know what to do.

I know as soon as they come to believe in the bible then they could no longer continue.

And you can't MAKE anyone believe the bible. You can only treat them with love and set a good example.

[ladybug]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 11:50 AM'] You might want to read the books...Gandalf is a [i]wizard[/i] as is Sauraman. Gandalf is good, Sauraman is not. (hmmm...kind of like Dumbledore and Voldemort). They need their staffs to do their magic (HP needs a wand). They use incantations too.

In Cinderella, the fairy godmother has a wand, says an incantation, and magical things happen. A fairy is a magical creature; one cannot become a fairy...(in HP, you can't choose to become a wizard). [/quote]
Maybe that is WHY I don't read those books. I have no interest in them at all.

Staffs in themselves are not evil. Moses had a staff with a snake on it, and whoever would look upon it would live. It was a miraculous staff.

I think if a lightening bolt is connected to christianity in an obvious sense...and used in a christian setting, then it is okay because in the bible, the lightening bolt stands for Satan in one instance, and in another it stands for the voice of Jehovah.

There are certain symbols our church has christianized in order to help pagans understand our concepts....like the phoenix rising from the ashes. But we don't promote the pagan part of it.

So, you have to look at the book or actions behind the person using the symbols and see whether it is promoting christianity or witchcraft and paganism.

Also in the bible, Satan is called a morning star, and Jesus is called a morning star.

We have the epiphany star which is 5 pointed, and witches have the pentagram.

Satan is the snake in the garden of eden, and Jesus is the snake on the cross in Chrstian symbolism as he became sin so we could be saved.

So, there is a lot of similarities between the symbols satan uses and symbols of christ.

We have to know how to discern the context in which the symbols are used. It shouldn't be cloudy to where we are not sure whether it's of christ or not. It should be clear.

To me, there is enough evidence to where I know I have to handle it with caution, and not just do it because everyone else is doing it. It's too much of a misty foggy area.

I'd rather let my kids watch Veggie Tales.

[p0lar_bear]

I grew up on fantasy literature that involved witches, wizards, magic and dragons and the like...I still read them.

I didn't grow up to be involved in the occult, I grew up to be a Catholic apologist.

I think you are simplifying things too much and vilifying something that isn't necessarily bad. (As well as vilifying all those who do not see HP has inherently bad...which, btw, would include Archbishop Chaput).

[Aloysius]

FYI: "Jehovah" is a mistranslation of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) which was mixed with the vowels from the word Adonai so that people would remember to say Adonai and not speak the Hashem ("The Name"). They were very careful not to speak His Name in vain. Anyway, "Jehovah" is a 400 year old mistranslation.

[ladybug]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 12:27 PM'] I grew up on fantasy literature that involved witches, wizards, magic and dragons and the like...I still read them.

I didn't grow up to be involved in the occult, I grew up to be a Catholic apologist.

I think you are simplifying things too much and vilifying something that isn't necessarily bad. (As well as vilifying all those who do not see HP has inherently bad...which, btw, would include Archbishop Chaput). [/quote]
I have a question for you. At one point does a person draw the line and realize that the envelope is being pushed too far in fantasy stories?

I listen to rock n roll, but at what point does a rock n roll song go too far? Should I let my children listen to ALL rock n roll?

Is there a point to where television goes to far with sex topics. We all grew up with seeing people laying in bed together and kissing and making love. At what point do those shows go to far?

We need to have boundaries that we do not cross. Excess is never a good thing.

The difference between Harry Potter and Puff the Magic Dragon is a getting drunk versus one glass of wine.

And some people who have had a history of addiction to the occult should not read those books like an alchoholic should not have that first drink....even though wine is not bad in an of itself.

[p0lar_bear]

If it is a problem for a particular person, then perhaps [i]that person[/i] should not read it. It is wrong, however, to then say that it is evil. To take your own analogy, not everyone is an alcoholic, so while alcohol may cause trouble for some, it is not evil.

From Archbishop Chaput

[quote]So what's the verdict on Harry Potter? That's a matter for parents, not bishops, to decide. I think Harry Potter can be happily enjoyed as a children's fantasy movie. Nothing in the film attacks the Christian faith, and good does win out over evil. At the same time, unfortunately, characters in the Potter books do sometimes accomplish good things by doing bad things, like lying.

In other words, J.K. Rowling is a very different author from C.S. Lewis or J.R.R. Tolkien. If you're looking for Christian allegory, Harry Potter isn't it. [i]Magic and sorcery can be harmless if we understand them simply as story-telling superstition.[/i] If we start believing in them, if we develop an abnormal interest in them, we quickly get into trouble. The Church rejects witchcraft for a very good reason. The devil is not a myth.

Parents who foster an active Christian home for their children probably have little to worry about from a film like Harry Potter. Parents who don't have a lot more to worry about than just this film. The Church teaches that parents are the primary educators of their children for a good reason. They know - or should know - their children better than anyone else. With Harry Potter, as with so much else, parents are the first and best judge (emphasis added). [/quote]

full text available at www.archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_05_01_potter.htm

[ladybug]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 15 2004, 12:39 PM'] FYI: "Jehovah" is a mistranslation of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) which was mixed with the vowels from the word Adonai so that people would remember to say Adonai and not speak the Hashem ("The Name"). They were very careful not to speak His Name in vain. Anyway, "Jehovah" is a 400 year old mistranslation. [/quote]
You know what I mean though. Whatever.

[ladybug]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:03 PM'] If it is a problem for a particular person, then perhaps [i]that person[/i] should not read it. It is wrong, however, to then say that it is evil. To take your own analogy, not everyone is an alcoholic, so while alcohol may cause trouble for some, it is not evil.

From Archbishop Chaput



full text available at www.archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_05_01_potter.htm [/quote]
So then this book should never be part of required reading in a school then if a parent has a conscientious objection. It should be removed from the list then and left up to the parent, not the educators. So the catholic board of education is doing the right thing in considering removing it.