Did Mohammed even exist? Dr. Jay Smith

[Machine_Washable]

I’m not watching the video and giving him views. I assume that this is based on Patricia Crone’s work Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam. Crone did not claim that Mecca didn’t exist, she claimed that it wasn’t a major trading centre and that Islam originated outside of Mecca. No serious person claims it simply didn’t exist. 
 

What evidence is there that Mecca existed? Here is a big one. When Prophet Muhammad ﷺ died, many wars broke out. The apostasy wars broke out when some clans claimed their alliance was only made with Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, there were civil wars wherein many died. There were early splits that would codify into distinct sects of Islam (Sunni, Shi, Kharijites and more). In all this why did nobody accuse the Caliph of changing the city from somewhere near Gaza to this invented city of Mecca? 

Many other claims were made and preserved by Muslim scholars. There is even the claim of a sahabi that Al Fatiha was revealed in Medina (which is a much more upsetting for reasons I’m not going to get into here). 

The Shia claimed that Caliph Umar thwarted the will of Prophet Muahammad ﷺ (based on a Hadith that Sunni scholar recorded even though it is strange from a Sunni perspective). They even claim that Caliph Umar was responsible for the death of Prophet Muhammad’s ﷺ daughter Fatima. Why didn’t the Shia ever use this relocation to rally more of the ummah to their side? This makes no sense. Their extremists openly curse Aisha (a wife of Prophet Muahamamd ﷺ and Umar and Abu Bakr (the first two Caliphs). But they have been completely silent on this conspiracy? Why? 

The Kharijites killed Caliph Ali because he endorsed an arbitration process to end a civil war which they felt wasn’t based on the Qur’an but they had nothing to say about the Sunni Caliph creating the Kabbah and this city called Mecca and telling Muslims this is the direction they must pray towards?To understand why this is so ridiculous, intentionally not performing your prayers is a major sin in Islam. The Kharijites believed it made you an apostate. The Kharijites are not a dead sect with no records, by the way. They have moderated but they are the official madhab and aqeedah of Oman and exist in pockets in other places. 
 

I have seen revisionist historians who revere Patricia Crone make the same point. While they respect her work and maybe even agree with some of her skepticism, they find this strong claim untenabl

On 12/24/2024 at 5:51 AM, Didacus said:

He's a doctor and his field is Islam... you obviously did not check his credentials.

Furthermore he relies on research done by peers who are well established historians, and he cites these references often in his discourses.

He’s an evangelical apologist. He is not a historian. This is on Wikipedia:

 

”He earned a BA from Messiah College and then a Masters of Divinity from Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary in apologetics. He has also earned an MA in Islamics from the Fuller Theological Seminary, and a PhD in apologetics and polemics from the Melbourne School of Theology.”

[Credo in Deum]

6 hours ago, Machine_Washable said:

No serious person claims it simply didn’t exist. 

Serious people are claiming this or at least theorizing it’s possible hence the link I shared from Acadamia.edu with the paper titled “If Mecca Did Not Exist in the Time of Muhammad, then Who Was Muhammad and Where Did He Live?”  It’s an interesting read which talks about the lack of evidence for Mecca prior to Muhammad and Islam as well as the possible issues with things Muslims claim is evidence of its existence prior to Muhammad/Islam.
 

 

Edited December 25, 2024 by Credo in Deum

[little2add]

On 12/23/2024 at 2:19 PM, Didacus said:

No, it is not...  The number of fools do not prove the lie.

The idea that Mohammed really existed or not is really a "moot point", considering the undeniable fact that over 1,600 million people practice one form or another of the Islamic  faith and fervently believe in the prophet Muhammad.

just saying...

[Machine_Washable]

On 12/25/2024 at 6:50 PM, Credo in Deum said:

Serious people are claiming this or at least theorizing it’s possible hence the link I shared from Acadamia.edu with the paper titled “If Mecca Did Not Exist in the Time of Muhammad, then Who Was Muhammad and Where Did He Live?”  It’s an interesting read which talks about the lack of evidence for Mecca prior to Muhammad and Islam as well as the possible issues with things Muslims claim is evidence of its existence prior to Muhammad/Islam.
 

 

As far as I know, Crone didn’t claim that Mecca didn’t exist. She claimed it wasn’t a major trade hub and that it wasn’t the central place that prophet Muhammad ﷺ gave dawah. I skimmed the article you suggested. Most of the arguments I see are more applicable to Crone’s claims than to it not existing at all. 
 

I didn't see it explain why we supposedly created a city out of nothing or why neither the Shia nor Kharijites used this huge change as a way to discredit Sunnis. In my mind, this is the most obvious and substantial secular argument against this idea. This was an argument made against orientalists who claimed that Qur’an was created after the death of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ and it has been vindicated as more evidence comes out that the Qur’an had a set form at the beginning of Islam’s rise  

As a final note, a lot of Christian evangelists like the man in the video latch onto this issue of Mecca being a major commercial hub or not. I think this reflects their confusion and lack of deep knowledge. I was never raised to think Mecca was a major commercial hub. This isn’t claimed in the Qur’an or the Hadith or Sira. As far as I know this is an orientalist claim. It was a big deal because their explanation for the rise of Islam was based on the belief that Mecca was a big commercial hub where merchants from far away lands were regularly passing through. In the Sira, Mecca does have trade but most of the significance is as a site of religious pilgrimage. If it was a major commercial hub then it wouldn’t make sense for the Meccans to be sending caravans of goods to Damascus. 
 

If there was historical evidence that Mecca never existed then I would say Allahu a’alam and we have faith regardless of what historians say. In this case, I still think it’s a bad argument even from a secular perspective for the reasons I mentioned in my last post. 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Machine_Washable

[Nunsuch]

On 12/24/2024 at 5:51 AM, Didacus said:

He's a doctor and his field is Islam... you obviously did not check his credentials.

Furthermore he relies on research done by peers who are well established historians, and he cites these references often in his discourses.

Actually, I did. His credentials are not of the sort that any serious historian would consider reputable. I speak as one who got a history PhD from a top-five R-1 institution and who is a full professor at another R-1. Neither characterizes him. Merely being "a doctor" is not sufficient; I've served on enough mediocre dissertation defenses and on enough search committees to know that!

[little2add]

 

1 hour ago, Nunsuch said:

I've served on enough mediocre dissertation defenses and on enough search committees to know that!

well, la-di-da 

[Nunsuch]

4 minutes ago, little2add said:

 

well, la-di-da 

This was in direct response to someone claiming the reliability of the evangelical source because he was "a doctor." Obviously, you have no respect for expertise, and that is to be expected. Some of us do. Infantile responses are, well, infantile.

[Luigi]

So much for the free exchange of ideas, academic debate, and all of that happy horsesh*t. Academe is really just one big game of The Revenge of the Nerds.

Holier than thou, smarter than thou, better educated than thou, more credentialed than thou, more liberal than thou. *sigh*

Let us all respond, "Yes, sister. Whatever you say, sister. Thank you, sister. May we make a donation now, sister?" The nuns raised us to accept everything from the top down (and they are at the top), to believe everything they told us, to keep our mouths shut and our wallets open. 

But, obstreperous little children that we are, I guess we never will learn. 

[little2add]

8 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

This was in direct response to someone claiming the reliability of the evangelical source because he was "a doctor." Obviously, you have no respect for expertise, and that is to be expected. Some of us do. Infantile responses are, well, infantile.

"Yes, sister. Whatever you say, sister. Thank you, sister. 

 sorry.  please accept my apologies for my lame infantile-ness.  

[Didacus]

On 12/25/2024 at 12:27 PM, Machine_Washable said:

I’m not watching the video and giving him views. (snip)

Don't worry, I watched it an extra 3 times over the holidays just for you!

On 12/30/2024 at 6:44 PM, Nunsuch said:

Actually, I did. His credentials are not of the sort that any serious historian would consider reputable. I speak as one who got a history PhD from a top-five R-1 institution and who is a full professor at another R-1. Neither characterizes him. Merely being "a doctor" is not sufficient; I've served on enough mediocre dissertation defenses and on enough search committees to know that!

He quotes several others of strong credentials...  in so far as reputable - many in ill-repute are often correct - see Covid era of a few years ago... 

Many of the claims seem legit as there are very slim, or few responses to the claims.  True that this view of the SIN (standard Islamic narrative) is fairly new and some time should be afforded for proper academic response, however the pieces put together form a very convincing story.  Too bad you choose to attack the person rather than discuss the content (which I suspect is the standard reply for muhammedeens in general as well).

On 12/28/2024 at 4:10 PM, little2add said:

The idea that Mohammed really existed or not is really a "moot point", considering the undeniable fact that over 1,600 million people practice one form or another of the Islamic  faith and fervently believe in the prophet Muhammad.

just saying...

The question is not moot...  

If one proves without a doubt that Jesus did not exist, Christianity falls apart and disapears within a generation...  The same is essentially true for the muhammedeens.