Warning against those who think they can judge 'Doctrine of the Holy Father'

[BarbTherese]

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the Pope not only has a duty to guard and preserve the “static” deposit of faith, but also a second, unique charism, only given to Peter and his successors, which is “a living and active gift.” 

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“I do not have this charism, nor do you

, nor does Cardinal [Raymond] Burke. Today only Pope Francis has it,”

 

I have long believed this special charism of The Holy Father i.e. to speak to us as The Holy Spirit would have us hear.  "Thou art Peter, The Rock, and on this rock I will built my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it"   Nothing whatsoever is EVER LOST by obedience to rightful authority, sin precluded.

[fides' Jack]

On 9/25/2023 at 11:05 PM, BarbTherese said:

Nothing whatsoever is EVER LOST by obedience to rightful authority, sin precluded.

I agree with this statement.  But rightful authority does not only mean, in this context, the person who was validly elected as pope.  It also means the authority of the pope that is rightly ordered.  There are certain things the pope has no right to command, and there are certain things a pope has no right to do, himself, especially regarding the deposit of faith and the liturgy.

For instance, the pope has no right to remove the Preface from the liturgy, nor to ordain women, nor to bless homosexual (or otherwise sinful) partnerships, nor to change Church teaching on a moral issue, nor to proclaim that any other religion is a path to God, nor to deny Communion to anyone on the tongue, nor to forbid a form of the liturgy that was specified by the "charism" of the Holy Spirit centuries earlier "will be valid henceforth, now, and forever".  

When a pope acts against this, he acts against the "charism" of his office, against the entirety of the Church, and against God Himself, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Clearly the pope is not protected from heresy, as there have been many several heretical popes throughout the last 2,000 years, and the Church has always taught, even by popes, but also by Scripture, that we are to resist even the pope (or even saints and angels) if what he says contradicts the long-established deposit of faith.

It is precisely the doctrine of the pope that we must judge.  I cannot judge his soul, only what he does and says.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by fides' Jack

[fides' Jack]

Scripture commands us to judge the doctrine of the pope: "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed."  Galatians 1, 8

Also see the first video above, @12:05

[BarbTherese]

I agree in the main.  Perhaps The Holy Spirit wanted us to hear what the pope said/believed, taught/proclaimed and to identify it as heresy.  That proclaiming would, to my mind, fall under Laity - Baptism - baptised as priest  prophet and king. https://www.catholicdigest.com/from-the-magazine/from-the-catechism/priest-prophet-and-king-who-me/

There are those who hold to be good practising Catholics who hold to doctrines/dogma clearly not catholic...until they hear or read it proclaimed as heresy from another(s).

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Question (CATHOLIC ANSWERS.COM):

Have there been popes who were heretics?

Answer: https://www.catholic.com/qa/has-there-been-a-heretical-pope

No pope has ever been found to be a heretic.

The accusation is sometimes thrown around is that Pope Honorius was a heretic. However, he was never actually accused of being a heretic during his lifetime. Pope Honorius was condemned for not stepping in to stop a heresy and thus was considered guilty of its spread. He was not condemned as actually believing or teaching the heresy.

 

 

[BarbTherese]

There are those, as an example, who believe that Holy Communion is only a memorial of Jesus.  They can be quite taken aback to be told that that belief makes them heretics.  They then have a choice to research within available means to discern truth of the matter and their position; they don't care.  Might be other positions too.

[fides' Jack]

12 hours ago, BarbTherese said:

Perhaps The Holy Spirit wanted us to hear what the pope said/believed, taught/proclaimed and to identify it as heresy.  That proclaiming would, to my mind, fall under Laity - Baptism - baptised as priest  prophet and king. https://www.catholicdigest.com/from-the-magazine/from-the-catechism/priest-prophet-and-king-who-me/

Agreed.  That is one possible view.  And actually not far from my own perspective.

12 hours ago, BarbTherese said:

Question (CATHOLIC ANSWERS.COM):

Have there been popes who were heretics?

Answer: https://www.catholic.com/qa/has-there-been-a-heretical-pope

No pope has ever been found to be a heretic.

I believe this is also correct.  As Bishop Athanasius Schneider has pointed out, there is nobody in the Church with the authority to proclaim the pope a heretic, formally.  But even a lay Catholic, from a position of "priest, prophet, and king", has the grace, which stems from God, through the Catholic Church, based in the theological virtue of faith, to recognize material heresy, even when it isn't formally declared.

Nevertheless, I stand corrected.  I could point out Pope St. John Paul II's scandal of kissing the Quran (which was an act of material heresy), but my statement was just a repetition of unproven claims I had read online which I erroneously accepted without personal research.  I was under the impression that at least a few popes had been declared formal heretics after their deaths by their own successors, but from what I see now that's not the case.  

So thank you for pointing that out, and for changing my mind on that issue.

Here's another link I found on the topic: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/has-any-pope-been-guilty-of-heresy-1118

Edited September 29, 2023 by fides' Jack

[BarbTherese]

It is great to be in agreement - it is more likely to have the ring of truth about it.  I thought that heresy should be condemned right up to and including the Pope; however no one has the authority to take it any further and to punish him.   Heresy can be culpable or inculpable of course.  In the case of a pope it is more likely to be culpable although not necessarily.

[KnightofChrist]

The Pope does not have his own doctrine. There is Church doctrine but not doctrine of the Pope.

[BarbTherese]

8 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

The Pope does not have his own doctrine. There is Church doctrine but not doctrine of the Pope.

What I took it to mean is truths of the Holy Father held as truth.  What we are bound to believe is held in the Nicene Creed and in the dogma of The Church.  With doctrines of The Church there is a scale of importance and call to believe.

1. : something that is taught. 2. : a principle or the principles in a system of belief. doctrinal. Merriam webster dictionary: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doctrine  

= literal and secular meaning of the word, doctrine.

[BarbTherese]

On 9/28/2023 at 12:05 AM, fides' Jack said:

It is precisely the doctrine of the pope that we must judge.  I cannot judge his soul, only what he does and says.

I agree................every so often, Jack, we reach agreement.  

[BarbTherese]

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DOCTRINE

Any truth taught by the Church as necessary for acceptance by the faithful. The truth may be either formally revealed (as the Real Presence), or a theological conclusion (as the canonization of a saint), or part of the natural law (as the sinfulness of contraception). In any case, what makes it doctrine is that the Church authority teaches that it is to be believed. this teaching may be done either solemnly in ex cathedra pronouncements or ordinarily in the perennial exercise of the Church's magisterium or teaching authority. Dogmas are those doctrines which the Church proposes for belief as formally revealed by God. (Etym. Latin doctrina, teaching.)

 

 Fr Hardon SJ wrote the Catholic Dictionary - a reliable dictionary anyway.  He also helped write the CCC and is highly regarded.  The above is his definition of doctrine.  It would seem to indicate that we must always believe doctrine equally.  Catholic Culture has Father Hardon's dictionary.   This corrects what I had thought.

What this thread is about, however, is what the Holy Father holds to be true for himself personally and what he advocates we all believe and not challenge.  The thread raises the thinking that  it is most unwise to correct and amend what the Holy Father holds to himself to be true for himself - and advocates we all do the same.

The teaching authority, The Magisterium, comprises the Pope and Bishops all in agreement and therefore not incorporated in this thread.

Edited October 2, 2023 by BarbTherese

[fides' Jack]

On 10/1/2023 at 12:18 AM, BarbTherese said:

I agree................every so often, Jack, we reach agreement.  

Praise God!