Gender Theory

[Alison]

This is kind if a response to something that came up in the Vocation Station, with multiple individuals expressing how they believe that transgender people should be "affirmed" and "supported" in their personhood by Catholics in a spirit of "Christian charity", that medically transitioning to the opposite sex is essentially "good" for their wellbeing and helps prevent suicide (which is just statistically not true but that's beside the point), they know trans people who have transitioned and are "happy", etc.

I witnessed a complete misunderstanding as to what the Church teachers regarding sex and gender (Pope Francis clearly stated in Amoris Laetitia No. 56: "biological sex and the socio-cultural role of sex (gender) can be distinguished but not separated."), as well as why gender theory (this idea that your biological sex is basically irrelevant and gender is "what you really are on the inside" which could be male, female, both, neither, etc. Just google the "Gender Unicorn", it will give you a good understanding as to what these people believe) is completley incompatible with Catholicism. Gender ideology attempts to completley redfine human nature and it is seriosuly a dangerous path of thinking. Therefore, I figured we should really have a discussion about this. 

Here is a document (USCCB) explaining how Catholics should respond to Gender ideology: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/upload/Gender-Ideology-Select-Teaching-Resources.pdf

[Alison]

16 hours ago, Alison said:

This is kind if a response to something that came up in the Vocation Station, with multiple individuals expressing how they believe that transgender people should be "affirmed" and "supported" in their personhood by Catholics in a spirit of "Christian charity", that medically transitioning to the opposite sex is essentially "good" for their wellbeing and helps prevent suicide (which is just statistically not true but that's beside the point), they know trans people who have transitioned and are "happy", etc.

I witnessed a complete misunderstanding as to what the Church teachers regarding sex and gender (Pope Francis clearly stated in Amoris Laetitia No. 56: "biological sex and the socio-cultural role of sex (gender) can be distinguished but not separated."), as well as why gender theory (this idea that your biological sex is basically irrelevant and gender is "what you really are on the inside" which could be male, female, both, neither, etc. Just google the "Gender Unicorn", it will give you a good understanding as to what these people believe) is completley incompatible with Catholicism. Gender ideology attempts to completley redfine human nature and it is seriosuly a dangerous path of thinking. Therefore, I figured we should really have a discussion about this. 

Here is a document (USCCB) explaining how Catholics should respond to Gender ideology: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/upload/Gender-Ideology-Select-Teaching-Resources.pdf

Okay guys if this comes across as a little harsh or confrontational I apologize 🥲 I was writing this yesterday and got a bit heated in the moment. I truly do wish to discuss with all of you in a spirit of truth and charity! 

[little2add]

What exactly is theoretical about a persons , physical gender?

 

 

Are you talking about a persons mental state?

Edited April 11, 2023 by little2add

[Alison]

5 hours ago, little2add said:

What exactly is theoretical about a persons , physical gender?

 

 

Are you talking about a persons mental state?

"Gender theory" is a theory that has arised in the culture which essentially believes that your biological sex has nothing to do with who you are, but who you "feel" you are on the inside is who you really are. For instance your literal sex could be male, but your "gender" is "neutral" meaning you claim/identify to be truly neither male nor female. 

[Nunsuch]

40 minutes ago, Alison said:

"Gender theory" is a theory that has arised in the culture which essentially believes that your biological sex has nothing to do with who you are, but who you "feel" you are on the inside is who you really are. For instance your literal sex could be male, but your "gender" is "neutral" meaning you claim/identify to be truly neither male nor female. 

Can you cite any references or sources that this is an accepted definition of gender theory? Because I certainly don't think it is. 

[Alison]

12 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

Can you cite any references or sources that this is an accepted definition of gender theory? Because I certainly don't think it is. 

My bad, it turns out "gender theory" includes multiple different theories (some regarding feminism, others transgender, etc.). I guess what I meant would be categorizied as "gender identity" ideology (it is not a theory because there's like zero scientific evidence for its existence) This explains it pretty well. https://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-preventing-discrimination-because-gender-identity-and-gender-expression/3-gender-identity-and-gender-expression. What this describes is completley incompatable with the Church's view on sex and gender, as well as human nature in general. A lot of what I do know is also from personal experience. 

Just now, Alison said:

My bad, it turns out "gender theory" includes multiple different theories (some regarding feminism, others transgender, etc.). I guess what I meant would be categorizied as "gender identity" ideology (it is not a theory because there's like zero scientific evidence for its existence) This explains it pretty well. https://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-preventing-discrimination-because-gender-identity-and-gender-expression/3-gender-identity-and-gender-expression. What this describes is completley incompatable with the Church's view on sex and gender, as well as human nature in general. A lot of what I do know is also from personal experience. 

I actually also don't know if any of the "gender theories" would even be considered actual theories, or if they're just reffered to as such

[Nunsuch]

There is not "zero scientific evidence" for it. It's actually quite extensive. Since you didn't know what it even was 24 hours ago, I would caution against speaking definitively now. Identity is not an ideology, by the way. 

[Alison]

17 minutes ago, Nunsuch said:

There is not "zero scientific evidence" for it. It's actually quite extensive. Since you didn't know what it even was 24 hours ago, I would caution against speaking definitively now. Identity is not an ideology, by the way. 

You are correct that didn’t label it correctly 24 hours ago, it was my fault for not ensuring I did so correctly. I have had my own experience with body dysmorphia as well as personally known people who have suffered from gender dysphoria, so I have insight into how harmful this way of thinking is for people and society at large. I am also not speaking against it because of a personal philosophical position but because the Church condemns this view of a person’s identity as subject to themselves rather than subject to God’s almighty and perfect design. Please read through this document complied by the USCCB: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/upload/Gender-Ideology-Select-Teaching-Resources.pdf. 

24 minutes ago, Nunsuch said:

There is not "zero scientific evidence" for it. It's actually quite extensive. Since you didn't know what it even was 24 hours ago, I would caution against speaking definitively now. Identity is not an ideology, by the way. 

As far as scientific evidence goes, John Hopkins University professer Paul McHugh recounts a long term study that was done in Sweden (a notably "accepting" country regarding transgender persons): 

“A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population."

[BarbTherese]

 I haven't read right through this thread.  Apologies.   

If truth is going to hurt a person, no matter how charitable, should I still convey the truth?  How would I like to be treated, perhaps need to be treated, were I to identify as the opposite gender?  Truth can be hurtful because the person is not ready for it, or because there is something in their history/where  they are coming from, where any sort of rejection can devastate.  And we cannot fool ourselves, telling the truth with charity can be deeply hurtful.  We do seem to want generally to create the other in our own image and likeness - bring them into the herd and have herd values just like us, while The Lord deeply Loves and accepts all of us just as we are.  The Catholic Catechism tells us that outside pressure can mitigate grave matter into venial sin.  Goodness, if all my venial sins were misjudged as mortal, accusers would be confronting me with their truth for hours to days to possibly more.  Scripture calls Satan "the accuser who accuses day and night before God".  We are weak and imperfect, sinful day after day and that thing accuses us of grave offenses, when most probably our sins are not grave at all, compared to its (I refuse to call Satan a male!!! To give it any name at all!!!)   That damnable thing wants to falsely accuse us of being just like it is before The Lord, rather implying that Justice has created Hell for it to abide in for eternity, should not Justice therefore do the same to us, it falsely attempts to tempt The Lord to condemn us all.  Stupid! Who am I to 'gently' accuse my brother of serious sin - am I free of it to do so?  If not free, then what makes my sin less serious than my brother to stand as his or her accuser.  To identify thus with The Accuser.  Perhaps I have never ever committed mortal sin, then I jolly well ought to know better with such an abundance of Active and Sanctifying Grace surely.

I think that serious or venial sin can also be measured by the Graces granted not to sin and so, as I accuse my brother, am I confident of my own disposition.  No one can be, to my mind, until Judgement by The Lord.  St Therese said, and paraphrasing, that if The Lord had not showered her soul with Grace, she would have been a great sinner.....All is Grace, she said.  She had a good and holy protected Catholic loving and very close family, she entered Carmel and lived until her early death in one of the strictest monastic religious Orders.......and all was Grace.

Jesus was accused falsely.....and therefore stands shoulder to shoulder with all accused.......falsely or not.

My experience: I recall when I was in the workforce and landed an excellent secretarial position, which I really needed for my own encouragement and self confidence to mention only two qualities I needed to go on in this near-on completely mucked up society.  I decided to keep my bipolar condition a secret so I would not have to deal with gossip, backstabbing, of which I  had past experience in previous positions, where gossip and back-stabbing did go around an office.  When I started work in my new needed position, the new receptionist hired knew the people who lived across the road from my mother and knew of my bipolar problems.  They gossiped and my 'secret' was no longer a secret.  I tried to deal with it in my top position as the boss's secretary, but failed and became very ill and was hospitalized.  The boss visited my mother asking about me.  Mum told him about bipolar and hospital and that I would not be returning to work.  I had been living in our family home back then.   He came into hospital to see me and begged me not to leave, but I left.  I had to do so.  I was weak and vulnerable, like a sick little baby in need of tender care, at that point in particular and I knew it.  I could not face that office again.

Later, I did attempt suicide - a very serious attempt via overdose. Coma.  Once eventually discharged from hospital after many tests on my organs, they were amazed that no organ had been harmed.  No damage at all anywhere.

Be very careful with truth, it can be a weapon intended or not.  Be careful with charity too, we try to know what it is and it is not.  We can treat others as objects....for our 'holy' charity in the interests of our own ego, our own 'holiness'.  Nothing like sitting quietly and thinking about how The Lord Loves me, which is what I owe to all others.......my debt before God.  I read somewhere at Judgement we wont be asked about our failures, our sins.......but how we have loved.

Jesus said that He came, He Incarnated, to call sinners....because the righteous have no need of Him.  Mark Ch2  I had a waking dream once.  I was in Heaven and two heroin addicts were sitting either side of Jesus.  I was right down the back.

My take!  There is  that old joke:  An Islamic man goes to Heaven.  Jesus is showing him around.  They come to a huge and quite lengthy wall and Jesus falls silent:  "How about the wall?" the man asks, what's the take there?"  Jesus replies "Shhhh, the Catholics are behind it and they think they are the only ones up here".    

 We are in for a shock, aren't we? 

 

Peace............Barb

 

[little2add]

16 hours ago, Alison said:

biological sex has nothing to do with

So it’s a mental  condition, you say?

 

 

 

[Alison]

4 hours ago, little2add said:

So it’s a mental  condition, you say?

 

 

 

From what I have seen, phycologists categorize it as "gender dysphoria", but our culture has tried to bring "acceptance" into it, hence various people not identifying with their gender and it being essentially labeled as normal (gender  is now often called "gender identity"). 

[SorrowfulHeart]

On 4/10/2023 at 4:49 PM, Alison said:

that medically transitioning to the opposite sex is essentially "good" for their wellbeing and helps prevent suicide

On 4/10/2023 at 4:49 PM, Alison said:

I witnessed a complete misunderstanding as to what the Church teachers regarding sex and gender (Pope Francis clearly stated in Amoris Laetitia No. 56: "biological sex and the socio-cultural role of sex (gender) can be distinguished but not separated."), as well as why gender theory (this idea that your biological sex is basically irrelevant and gender is "what you really are on the inside" which could be male, female, both, neither, etc. Just google the "Gender Unicorn", it will give you a good understanding as to what these people believe) is completely incompatible with Catholicism.

I know this came from a place you may no longer be in, but in my experience, this has been the complete opposite. When my transgender friends were not allowed their preferred pronouns and/or names, they were very heavily suicidal and often resorted to harmful coping practices. They were also often heavily persecuted by their Christian families, and that lead to hatred against the Christian faith. 

I've spent more nights and days than I can count explaining self-will and the will of God and transgender theology to high school "delinquents". I have poured over documents like Theology of the Body and books like Abandonment to Divine Providence.

I do make it clear that medical transitioning is against the Catholic Church, but I do not truly believe God would want these people completely miserable and depressed. I've had my vices and my harmful mechanisms, and God has allowed me to discern a vocation to be His Bride, one of, in my opinion, the highest honors I could have been blessed with. 

Again, I'm a high schooler, so you don't have to take my opinion, but I've watched people become truly happy as they settle into their new identities. They may wake up twenty years from now and find they are miserable, but for right now, I'm just here as a voice of(at least I try) love and Catholic theology.

[Nunsuch]

Allison, how many trans people do you actually know? Are you aware that surgical intervention is not pursued by many trans people, and the health care that others pursue is not in the form of surgery (which is not available to minors, in any event)? And what have you read about the subject, other than random (and often not well-informed) internet sources? Finally, you do realize that many/most trans people are not Catholic, and therefore what "the church teaches" (and, generally, the people who are articulating these teachings are not trained in medicine or psychology) is rather irrelevant to them an unlikely to be persuasive? It certainly won't open the possibility that they might find support in Christianity (much less Catholicism)....

I am not going to continue participating here on this thread, because I don't think it is a good use of my time and energies. But I do hope you will open your mind and your heart to the possibility, at least, that you may be wrong. 

[Luigi]

Thank God. 

[Alison]

On 4/13/2023 at 12:22 PM, SorrowfulHeart said:

I know this came from a place you may no longer be in, but in my experience, this has been the complete opposite. When my transgender friends were not allowed their preferred pronouns and/or names, they were very heavily suicidal and often resorted to harmful coping practices. They were also often heavily persecuted by their Christian families, and that lead to hatred against the Christian faith. 

I've spent more nights and days than I can count explaining self-will and the will of God and transgender theology to high school "delinquents". I have poured over documents like Theology of the Body and books like Abandonment to Divine Providence.

I do make it clear that medical transitioning is against the Catholic Church, but I do not truly believe God would want these people completely miserable and depressed. I've had my vices and my harmful mechanisms, and God has allowed me to discern a vocation to be His Bride, one of, in my opinion, the highest honors I could have been blessed with. 

Again, I'm a high schooler, so you don't have to take my opinion, but I've watched people become truly happy as they settle into their new identities. They may wake up twenty years from now and find they are miserable, but for right now, I'm just here as a voice of(at least I try) love and Catholic theology.

Hello, and thank you for taking time to engage with this discussion

One of my thoughts is that if not using someone’s preferred pronouns would lead them to be suicidal, that shows there is a deep psychological issue going on. As a Catholic Christian where I live, I am far more likely to be name called, mistreated, or hated on than a transgender person. I been sent horrible messages, had to engage with an anti-Christian system for a good chunk of my life, etc. I am not suicidal because of all this, and that is likely because my mental health is more stable. Using preferred pronouns isn’t the ultimate solution, authentic therapy is, which reaffirms one’s God-given identity and dignity. I would agree though that this is a more sensitive topic, and we should have recourse to the teachings of the Church as well as Catholic therapists who practice in alignment with Church teaching  does anyone (other than the link I already inserted previously) have any recourses you think would be helpful?

God has designed us to image His love and goodness into the world, we have no right to re-design ourselves (this only distorts a reflection of God’s goodness 😞). People who uphold transgender ideology will not be supported in that in the Church, because in doing so the Church would contradict her teaching. It’s kind of like how an abortionist, let’s say, wouldn’t find support in what they do in the Church. However, the Church deeply loves and cares for these people and wants to offer them genuine healing and support in battling with the dysphoria which is a legitimate mental illness. We love the person, but don’t love what is destroying them.