Is any community devoted to fighting the gender revolution and upholding fundamental truths about the human person?

[Nunsuch]

Thank you, @BarbTherese, for such an honest and compassionate response. You're right--it certainly is not easy! 

[tinytherese]

We certainly do need to listen to their stories and be compassionate. Just because you don't agree with someone's way of life though doesn't mean that you condemn them.

Charity and truth are not opposed to each other. You can love someone yet have honest conversations in a respectful manner if they're open to such discussions. I don't love my family members who've left The Church any less. Not that we should treat people like they're our "projects" to convert.

 

 

In some ways, it's like interacting with those with same-sex attraction.

 

Research has shown that sex changes didn't make the problems of those with gender dysphoria go away. The roots of their issues need to be addressed. Serious health and psychological problems can result after these procedures. https://sexchangeregret.com/

The Church has spoken out against sex-changes. Over time, more resources and pastoral approaches will further develop. https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/upload/Gender-Ideology-Select-Teaching-Resources.pdf

Edited March 24, 2023 by tinytherese

[Nunsuch]

6 minutes ago, tinytherese said:

We certainly do need to listen to their stories and be compassionate. Just because you don't agree with someone's way of life though doesn't mean that you condemn them.

Charity and truth are not opposed to each other. You can love someone yet have honest conversations in a respectful manner if they're open to such discussions. I don't love my family members who've left The Church any less. Not that we should treat people like they're our "projects" to convert.

 

 

In some ways, it's like interacting with those with same-sex attraction.

 

Research has shown that sex changes didn't make the problems of those with gender dysphoria go away. The roots of their issues need to be addressed. Serious health and psychological problems can result after these procedures. https://sexchangeregret.com/

The Church has spoken out against sex-changes. Over time, more resources and pastoral approaches will further develop. https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/upload/Gender-Ideology-Select-Teaching-Resources.pdf

Actually, that is *not* what the research shows. Here is an article about the largest study ever conducted. Coincidentally, it was published today. 

I'm gifting it, so you should be able to read it without a subscription. 

https://wapo.st/3TAKDyw

 

[tinytherese]

This may need to go The Debate Table.

In regards to a religious community, the closest I could find was maybe The Daughters of St. Paul? https://pauline.org/

Sister Helena Raphael Burns belongs is there are she does work which promotes Theology of the Body. She gives speeches and has a blog, which includes sharing resources on transgenderism.

https://hellburns.blogspot.com/search?q=transgender#.ZB_CpvbMK3A

[freedomreigns]

One thing that troubles me about the transgender movement is when permanent changes are proposed for children as a solution to dysphoria. (like going beyond "puberty blockers and moving more towards hormones and surgeries that would cause things like INFERTILITY and such. A child can not offer consent and certainly wouldn't have an understanding of how important the possiblity of biological children might be to them in 20 years.) That is more my political view than my religious view. Also, if I had kids, which I do not, I certainly would not be sending them to a public school where the idea would be promoted to them that my little boy might not be a boy or little girl might not be a girl. If my child organically had struggles with that, I would need to figure out what to do with that. But having that promoted to them? Nope.  

Also, I do have a serious difficulty as well with biological men participating in women's sports, as if the only biological advantage they have is testosterone and lowering that hormone levels the field. And I also have a serious issue with this idea that everyone needs to "approve" of the trans person. Like, be treated decently, sure. Be approved of without reservation? I don't expect that in my own life. That's not realistic. And not necessary. People do not have to agree with my self-expression, religious or political views, life choices, relationships, etc.  If people are so convince of their own gender as a trans person, they shouldn't need every other person to affirm them. 

I do believe is treating people compassionately and respectfully, of course. I have a trans friend, who is Catholic, although much less Catholic than before they became trans. (Meaning they don't reference the Church or God much anymore and I don't know if they go to Mass.) I use their preferred pronouns, and listen to their thoughts and ideas. I don't actually think this person IS a woman, but if they want to express themselves that way, it is not my busniness. I care about this person, they are an adult, and they deserve respect and freedeom.  My basic view is in agreement with the WHO, which distinguishes sex and gender and doesn't pretend that having a self-perception of a gender actually changes someone's sex. 

I personally don't think a religious community with a campaign against gender issues is a great idea. In my view religious should be moreso about being FOR something than AGAINST something. Like for prayer, for service, for being a witness to God, for humility... I suppose you could say religious have been against heresy,  but that had to do with problems in Christianity. I don't think expecting to remake the world in our likeness is going to succeed, but rather the "make disciples..." mandate.  Just my food for thought.  

[gloriana35]

5 hours ago, freedomreigns said:

 

I personally don't think a religious community with a campaign against gender issues is a great idea. In my view religious should be more about being FOR something than AGAINST something. Like for prayer, for service, for being a witness to God, for humility... I suppose you could say religious have been against heresy,  but that had to do with problems in Christianity. I don't think expecting to remake the world in our likeness is going to succeed, but rather the "make disciples..." mandate.  Just my food for thought.  

 I fully agree that being 'for' is far better than being 'against.'  

[BarbTherese]

My two cents from this precarious armchair is that I agree religious congregations or communities should not be formed specifically against anything at all.  But I do think, precarious armchair still, that room should be left in religious congregations etc. of action to take action against social problems.  Sisters, Brothers and Priest-religious in these communities ought to be able to join protest movements where the protest is agreed upon as worthwhile to protest actively against by the whole community.  I think it is important that these same religious protest in habit where the habit is retained and unless otherwise stated.

Would be informative from the informed to have Sisters, Brothers and Priest-religious chime into this thread and offer their informed opinion(s) ................. unless someone has and I've missed it.

Off topic somewhat:  I do wish we Laity had some loud and obvious (as with religious and their religious habits) 'advertisement' that we ARE Catholic Laity.  As it now is, we are sort of tucked out of sight (under the carpet?)...........though "out of sight" has its uses too.  The latter is the reason why, were I to start a religious community, we would retain habit AND secular clothing........either to be worn at discretion where not stipulated otherwise in the rule of life.  We, and easily identified as Laity in The Catholic Church, can commit and dedicate our lives to protesting AGAINST social problems unreservedly to our heart's content.  We in the Laity have this freedom.  I do tend to think that The Church (as hierarchy) is a bit? wary and suspicious of Laity and their freedoms.   I am hoping the internet and Catholic action with the good it is achieving, in our internet day and age, might trigger a rethink.  Pope Pius XII, then St Pope John Paul II CHRISTIFIDELES LAICI and in our day. Pope Francis state "The Faithful, more precisely the lay faithful, find themselves on the front lines of the Church's life"  ............ but with no public way of identifying ourselves.  Therefore, in a public sense, the religious habit is the front line of The Church.

Quote

 

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/31678/lay-people-at-the-forefront-of-the-churchs-mission-says-pope

Pope Francis – May 2018

Lay people are on the front line of the life of the Church.
We need their testimony regarding the truth of the Gospel and their example of expressing their faith by practicing solidarity.
Let us give thanks for the lay people who take risks, who are not afraid and who offer reasons for hope to the poorest, to the excluded, to the marginalized.
Let us pray together this month that the lay faithful may fulfill their specific mission, the mission that they received in Baptism, putting their creativity at the service of the challenges of today’s world.

 

 

[Alison]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:30 AM, gloriana35 said:

I am far from being any expert on human sexuality, and certainly am not a moral theologian. I hope no-one will be offended (...oh, can you pick up on the 1970s nun?)  by my saying that I do not even understand much of what is in the media, or which I have heard discussed, about thirteen genders; who is bigender; how so many people are not identifying with the gender they originally were assumed to have. Yet I have read of children (some not even old enough for puberty) developing grave depression or killing themselves for not being accepted for being transgender. It is confusing, but a very delicate area. (Even the decision of the Church of England, to not allow church marriages for same-sex couples, is being treated as if it were hateful and a violation of civil rights. Yet too many Church positions in the past 50 years have seemed to be presented more as a matter of civil rights than with attention to theological detail. I'm of mature years. My generation, well-meaning though we were, seemed to forget salvation, deification, theosis - the only personal sin left was being judgemental, even if we were speaking in theory, not judging the state of another soul, which never would be appropriate.)

I cannot say how this could be done, but there needs to be an overall stress on worship - on our human dignity, created in the divine image, deified through the Incarnation/resurrection. It sometimes saddens me when I read of religious communities who have a very selective emphasis on, for example, devotions for the unborn or sin of abortion. That does not mean I believe in abortion - though it can be a very complicated pastoral area - but that the focus is too limited,  and I cannot help but wonder if someone who had an abortion might feel she was guilty of the unspeakable sin and could never return to the Church. 

I would not want a congregation to be founded to specifically focus on gender issues. It could be taken to mean that those with whatever these gender situations are are 'the enemy.' 

The Church is catholic - that 'all are welcome' should be 'a given.' (I'm so 'live and let live' that I wouldn't notice if someone in the next pew had two heads. I am not a priest, or a spiritual director or confessor, or a moralist - what might be appropriate in such a role could be either teaching documents or pastoral guidance with knowledge of an individual's background.) But we've all neglected the dignity of creation, the focus on worship instead of only human relations, and so forth for too long. I would not want to see a single matter (much as it confuses me entirely, and I can't keep track of who is a 'he,' 'she', or 'they', since 'they' was a plural for 65 years of my life) be a community's focus. Campaigning and even offering devotions against puzzling developments in relation to thoughts of gender could keep those of us who are not transgender, binary, homosexual, and so forth from seeing our own sins and distractions. Devotions entirely against gender ideas could drive those who believe they don't fit in to despair.

I hope I'm making some sort of sense. I just do not think that a religious community should be established just to work against some very new and confusing idea. Preaching and living virtue and worship is part of all Religious life (or should be), and there is very little witness to vowed life left today. Vowed chastity, for example, has an eschatological dimension - the idea that life-long celibacy could be a charism only evolved in light of the resurrection, and recognition that there is more to our existence than this world, or living on through our children. 

I can see where you are coming from. However, I would say this is where speaking the "truth in charity" comes in. We must speak the truth, but we always need to do it from a place of love. The Sisters of Life are specifically devoted to human life issues for example, but they are so full of love and joy...they radiate Christ. They also offer retreats for those who have been wounded by abortion, showing fourth the love and compassion of Christ and His Church to those who have been involved in abortions (or even maybe were just affected by someone they know having an abortion). This attitude would prevent people from feeling like the Church rejects them/despairing. I also agree that if we are trying to deal with something like abortion for example, we need to have a very solid structure. The Sisters of Life really know their stuff, they know how to truly aid women in crisis pregancies, help those who are broken heal, etc. I also agree with what someone mentioned about being more "for" something rather than "against" something. Like with the gender issues, being "for" things such as Theology of the Body and upholding fundamental truths about the human person is likely the way to go. Although there are probably times when an "against" may be utilised, such as praying in front of an abortion clinic (again though, always in a spirit of true and profound charity). I disagree with the statement that if we devote ourselves to a societal issue we will just become bitter and judgmental, forgetting about our own sinfulness. This isn't necessarily true. Yes, we need to ensure that we are remaining humble and aware of our own sinfulness and nothingness (with confidence and hope in God's mercy, of course) - but there have been many great saints such as St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Dominic, St. Frances de Sales, etc. who seriously devoted themselves to things such as the reform of the clergy, counter-reformation work, etc. and they all remained profoundly humble and charitable. I do agree that this is a new idea however, and therefore we shouldn't start doing things rashly. We need wisdom, prayer, and careful loving attention to the situations currently going on. As far as transgender people committing suicide, I think that honestly just shows that there is a deeper issue going on (which I think is basically what you were saying). Even in very "accepting" countries such as Sweden, suicide rates amoung these people are still high. (eating disorder trigger warning for this next part) It is like if someone has anorexia and they feel like they are fat (even though they are not, and are as thin as a rail), putting that person on diet pills to help them lose weight. That is dangerous. Even if they were to lose more weight they still wouldn't feel skinny enough, because the problem isn't their body, the problem is the distortion going on in their brain. And I know what this is like because I lived in that disorder for two years. Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant 😅 does this make sense?

[BarbTherese]

It did make sense, although I think as a society including Catholicism, we do not sufficiently understand human sexuality, our whole human nature, just yet i.e. includes the nature nurture theories and debates still unsettled, decided.  That is a moral comment more than anything.  We need to take great care. We need great compassion and be open to a journey to try to understand with some measure of it anyway - I suspect rather often that journey could commence with no understanding at all.  Who are we to judge after all - what makes my sinfulness less than some others. Is moral culpability involved at all?  A moral comment as I said.  I am not meeting someone different to me, rather a fellow sinner on the journey of life with all its confusions and difficulties at times.

I did like your comment about starting out in relationships from a place of love, real love - of solidarity with.    When bipolar first hit and I was very ill indeed, it was two gay guys, partners, who offered comfort and support.  No one else whatsoever would - and I now understand their probable understandable reasons back then.  At the time, I was devastated.

Edited April 5, 2023 by BarbTherese

[tinytherese]

Some communities have sisters who are mental health professionals like The Religious Sisters of Mercy in Alma. https://www.rsmofalma.org/

Such sisters could specialize in treating those with gender dismorphia.

[Alison]

On 3/21/2023 at 2:55 PM, gloriana35 said:

I am acquainted with several people who are transgender (some of whom are involved in the church where I worship), but they are adult - I have no notion of what their reasons for transitioning were, nor would I ask. I'll admit that I am concerned with how very many children and youth have the dysmorphia  which Sorrowful Heart mentioned, and with the overall increase in suicides amongst the young. Once again, I shall emphasise that this is not my field, but, with the very large numbers of those who consider themselves to be of the wrong gender, I am concerned that the deep-seated problems someone may have (that could lead to despair and suicide) might not be directly related to gender confusion. (My knowledge is small, but I know there are those who have organs from both sexes - it is rare, but always existed.)

There indeed are matters which involve medical ethics or pastoral guidance which can arise, in this area that actually is quite new. Very few people had (what was called) a sex change forty years ago - there could be all sorts of new research that is necessary. But I would leave it to the specialists in medical ethics and moral theology to explore these areas. I would not want to see any religious congregation dedicate themselves to (borrowing the initial references in this thread) a 'revolution'! We're all one in human dignity, in the image and likeness of God, our nature deified in the Incarnation and resurrection. This isn't 'us vs. them.'

I've never known any Sisters of Life (mentioned in this thread, as well), but, from what I have read of them, they are professionals who can deal with social, medical, and legal difficulties which could lead an expectant mother to despair. I gather they are specialists in these fields, and they well may find assistance that could keep someone from the despair that leads to abortion. I only have read of them, but nothing gave me an impression that they were condemning abortion without being directly involved in seeking practical solutions and alternatives. They are working on the premise that abortion is murder. Those who are transgender are not harming anyone.

Okay friend, I can see where you are coming from here, but I do want to comment on some things because I truly care about your soul. First off, I agree that we need to always be charitable when addressing various issues such as this (“love the sinner hate the sin”). I would also one thousand percent agree that we all have human dignity and are made in the image and likeness of God. This is precisely why transgender ideology is so harmful: it distorts the image of God. It does trult harm people, the people thinking they are a different gender and then being convinced that they need to transition and that is the solution to their internal struggle. When in reality, gender dysphoria requires true phsycological attention that upholds the inherit identity and dignity of the person struggling. It is also harmful to all the peolle who are brainwashed into thinking this ideology is the truth. Because if our society becomes convinced that it is, our understanding of human nature, as well as of marriage and family will completley fall apart. Here is a document that quite thoroughly explains Church teaching on gender ideology, which I have found to be quite insightful: https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/upload/Gender-Ideology-Select-Teaching-Resources.pdf. I also recently put up a post on the Debate Table, so we can go into further discussion on there  

On 3/22/2023 at 8:59 AM, Nunsuch said:

Given the high rate of suicide among transgender people (especially the young) who are denied the healthcare they seek--or who are condemned, rejected by family, etc.--it seems to me that support for them is the best way to prevent the "destruction of life" that you reference here. Like @gloriana35, I know several trans people, and have learned about their stories and experiences. 

Friend, there is much more to it than just being denied “healthcare”. Firstly, it is simply not “caring for someone’s health” to attempt at surgically alter someones biological and God given sex. There is a certain order to the way God created us, and that order is good, as God repeats multiple times Genesis: “it is good” (He describes human beings as “very good”). If we begin to distort that order, it becomes a disorder. Disorder is never of God. It is the devil who takes what is good and twists it. If a man ends his life because he is a male who desires to be a female and can’t surgically remove his healthy reproductive organs, take hormones that aren’t naturally from his body, etc. there is something much deeper going on. Gender dysphoria is a legitimate mental illness and people need actual mental counseling and affirmation of their God given goodness, identity, and dignity. Please read my quote above this one. I linked there a resource that explains Church teaching on gender ideology (using numerous quotes from the last three Popes, Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith, the Catechism, etc.)

On 3/22/2023 at 9:24 AM, BarbTherese said:

        Thank you, Nunsuch.  I have known one transgender person I met in a private psychiatric hospital.  Everyone shunned her and she had had a terrible story and journey.  From that one experience, I very much agree that supporting the person is very positive to and for the person and much needed.  Involving them in community life if at  all possible - making every effort to do so.  Here in Australia, I do suspect we know all the right words, but are those words put into action 'on the ground' as it were.  My suspicion is probably not.....same as with mental illness and my own personal experience.  The negative, one of them, of any social problem.

In "destruction of life", I was referring to abortion  as my subject..........any confusion might be due possibly to clumsy sentence construction.  I am a fast and quite accurate typist and tend to write what I think, and as I think, with insufficient editing for clarity.  I am hoping to correct this here in this aged care home in which I now live.......i.e. plenty of time on my hands.       Hope so ............ while I have a lifetime of poor editing habits to correct.                        

 

 

Afterthought and I think I might have misread your Post, Nunsuch:  To make life more difficult for a transgender person is to contribute to the destruction of their life. to which, as with all, transgender persons have a Divine Right.   "Whatever you do for one of these, though the least of mine, you have done it to Me".   In Divine Justice, we owe them support and confirmation of their person-hood.

What makes my sin less serious than anyone else's sin?  In short: "Who am I to judge?"

I put something up on the Debate Table regarding this whole topic so we can all go into deeper discussion. I totally agree with you that we should never seek to degrade or make fun of transgender persons. However, we don’t want to go in the opposite direction either and support and encourage the disorder they are struggling with. They need legitimate help (i.e. counseling and being affirmed in their God-given identity and goodness) and compassion. And dear friend, what “Divine Right” are you speaking of? Nobody has the “right” to alter the way God has created them to be. Encouraging people in this is not loving them, because it is not good for them mentally, physically, or above all spiritually. We cannot judge people’s intentions (unless they were to explicitly state them) but we can judge people’s objective actions to be morally good or morally bad. For instance, if I were (God forbid) to murder an innocent person, the fact was that I murdered an innocent person and that in itself is a morally bad act. My intentions could have been anger, sadness, etc. The intentions (unless clearly communicated) cannot be judged with certainty, but the objective action can. Please read what I have quoted of other people throughout this post, as I go into further depth with the issue in general, and feel free to head over to the Debate Table to join the discussion 😊

[BarbTherese]

nn

Edited April 12, 2023 by BarbTherese

[BarbTherese]

I posted in this thread at first.  Realizing it was a mistake, I cut and pasted  the post into the Debate Forum here: 

 

We are not called to moralize with others, rather to love them.    Romans Chapter 7 https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PYV.HTM  is not lengthy, but does bear reading and a careful prayerful think about.

Our moral law, along with Canon Law, are said to be minefields, which is why we have Moral Theologians and Canon Lawyers.  Perhaps we need to ask others what they need, not give them what we think they need. We need to listen, not to accuse. "Whoever has ears ought to hear." Matthew Ch11   Scripture calls Satan, The Accuser. "Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Anointed. For the accuser 10 of our brothers is cast out, who accuses them before our God day and night." Revelations Ch 12 (The name, Satan, means The Accuser in Hebrew.)

[BarbTherese]

The word sin - one meaning is to miss the mark.  The mark is God.  We are all sinners.  We all miss the mark.  My explanations miss the mark as do the other person's explanations.  We need a Saviour!  Teach us, Jesus, how to Love. "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."  John 14   Jesus mixed with all kinds - sinners, prostitutes and pagans we are told.  Where does He moralize with any one of those?  He listens and responds (to their need/what they are saying) "Listen, you that have ears to hear"  Matthew Ch13

St Paul explains in Roman's Ch7 that we do not, cannot, know what sin is until we are told The Law, and so the Law convicts us. We are set free from the letter of The Law.  One needs to read the whole chapter, which is not lengthy.  We need to get things into context.

[BarbTherese]

Isiah is a beautiful book to read.  I have just been reading Chapters 11 and 12.