DameAgnes Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2023/02/rebel-nuns-of-the-amalfi-coast-expelled-from-convent-religious-life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 (edited) M y tuppence, and with absolute respect, is that a true or actual nun or religious cannot be made by any amount of decrees /declarations by authority, other than in name only. If authority has assigned a name, then they have the right to take it away. A nun or religious per se, however, is an interior something no human can make or take away. Prayer for these Sisters. ". Edited February 23, 2023 by BarbTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savvy Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 On 2/23/2023 at 5:17 AM, BarbTherese said: M y tuppence, and with absolute respect, is that a true or actual nun or religious cannot be made by any amount of decrees /declarations by authority, other than in name only. If authority has assigned a name, then they have the right to take it away. A nun or religious per se, however, is an interior something no human can make or take away. Prayer for these Sisters. ". My understanding is that the Holy See can only act if these nuns made solemn vows, very few communities do this. And it’s only done when someone applies for dispensation. In this case, they were forced out of their vows. Vatican 2, said nobody could do this. We need to pray for the state of the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, savvy said: We need to pray for the state of the church. Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hna.Caridad Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 I'm really trying to understand this situation. It's complicated because there is certainly a long history of "land grabs" on the part of the institutional Church's hierarchy against women's religious communities. Is this one of those situations? On the other hand, there's this statement in the article: "In 2021, the Vatican’s Dicastery for Consecrated Life ordered the convent closed, with the support of the Urbanist Poor Clare Sisters of Italy, due to the declining numbers." In light of their refusal to leave the property, it sounds like the two Sisters may have been living for at least the past two years, in direct disobedience of their own congregational leadership, which is an expellable offense. For the Vatican's Dicastery for Consecrated Life to get involved indicates that this disobedience most likely has been going on for much longer than just the past two years. It's really sad when anyone chooses to cling to a building rather than to their own community. I hope the woman from India has Italian citizenship or at least wasn't dependent on her former congregation for a religious/residency visa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraceUk Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 (edited) I must say I don't understand how this can happen. It's one thing to be forced out of a convent building and another to have their vows made null and void for refusing to move. Surely,there is more to this. Why didnt theymjust go to another convent. That happens quite a lot sadly with dwindling numbers. I just read the previous post. Sorry I should have read it first. It makes things clearer if they were part of a larger order and wouldn't do as they were told by their superiors. I had assumed it was an independent convent. Still a difficult situation. Edited February 25, 2023 by GraceUk To add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savvy Posted February 26, 2023 Share Posted February 26, 2023 (edited) On 2/25/2023 at 12:09 PM, Hna.Caridad said: I'm really trying to understand this situation. It's complicated because there is certainly a long history of "land grabs" on the part of the institutional Church's hierarchy against women's religious communities. Is this one of those situations? On the other hand, there's this statement in the article: "In 2021, the Vatican’s Dicastery for Consecrated Life ordered the convent closed, with the support of the Urbanist Poor Clare Sisters of Italy, due to the declining numbers." In light of their refusal to leave the property, it sounds like the two Sisters may have been living for at least the past two years, in direct disobedience of their own congregational leadership, which is an expellable offense. For the Vatican's Dicastery for Consecrated Life to get involved indicates that this disobedience most likely has been going on for much longer than just the past two years. It's really sad when anyone chooses to cling to a building rather than to their own community. I hope the woman from India has Italian citizenship or at least wasn't dependent on her former congregation for a religious/residency visa. My understanding is the Vatican’s new decrees on contemplative communities, is that they can’t take take women from foreign countries just to maintain numbers. They have been asked to form a fraternity where they can exchange resources with other contemplative communities, should they decide to stay open. Also wouldn’t members be bound in vows to a specific community, in religious life and would have to be released by them first to join another community? Could someone clarify this? Edited February 26, 2023 by savvy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sr Mary Catharine OP Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 I don't know the inside story to this but I suspect there is more. However, 3 nuns are no longer an "apostolic" or canonical community. This was so even before Cor Orans. Contemplative nuns were "governed" by the Apostolic Constitutions Sponsa Christi by Pius XII and there was a move back in the late 90s to have it updated by a new Apostolic Constitution because so much was obsolete but remained the law. Finally, Vultum Dei Quarere was promulgated by Pope Francis. It references Sponsa Christi and retains much that is in there that some people think is controversial when in fact, it is lifted from Sponsa Christi. Cor Orans is the INSTRUCTION. The article also says that the closure of the monastery had the support of Ubanist Poor Clare Federation. Basically, by refusing to go to another monastery the sisters were being defiant and disobedient. We also do not know what else was going on. Nuns are not women who just happen to live together in a shared space. Their way of life is governed by various laws not only the rule and constitution. We professed obedience to observe these laws. Our profession has consequences. I would be very careful to accept what you read online about these different events of contemplative communities, especially in Italy and to make snap judgements that the Holy See is out to "destroy" contemplative life and traditional communities. Things are not always what they seem. There have been enough stories that have come out about religious communities that people should learn to be cautious. And besides, it's not really our business. It distracts us from where we should keep our minds and hearts focused...on Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 19 hours ago, Sr Mary Catharine OP said: I would be very careful to accept what you read online about these different events of contemplative communities, especially in Italy and to make snap judgements that the Holy See is out to "destroy" contemplative life and traditional communities. Things are not always what they seem. There have been enough stories that have come out about religious communities that people should learn to be cautious. And besides, it's not really our business. It distracts us from where we should keep our minds and hearts focused...on Christ. 🏆 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sr Mary Catharine OP Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 On 2/23/2023 at 5:17 AM, BarbTherese said: M y tuppence, and with absolute respect, is that a true or actual nun or religious cannot be made by any amount of decrees /declarations by authority, other than in name only. If authority has assigned a name, then they have the right to take it away. A nun or religious per se, however, is an interior something no human can make or take away. Prayer for these Sisters. ". Actually, no, a nun or religious is a canonical state recognized by the Church. Our vows are "public" (even if done with no one there but the prioress and a witness). Our life is an ecclesial witness to the Church. We are not "private persons" even in the most hidden life a religious might live. Most contemplative nuns of the major orders have solemn vows and the order/congregation is not diocesan but papal right so falls directly under the Holy See. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraceUk Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 So does this mean those rebel nuns are now lay people. Even if they have taken perpetual vows. That doesn't seem right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nunsuch Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 1 hour ago, GraceUk said: So does this mean those rebel nuns are now lay people. Even if they have taken perpetual vows. That doesn't seem right to me. Actually, all nuns/sisters are "lay people," since women, including vowed religious, are not clerics. I think you may mean seculars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sr Mary Catharine OP Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Nunsuch said: Actually, all nuns/sisters are "lay people," since women, including vowed religious, are not clerics. I think you may mean seculars? Technically nuns are neither clerical or lay according to Canon Law which seems to have forgotten to then give a definition! One normally refers to them as "religious". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Sr Mary Catharine OP said: "religious". "Consecrated Life"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sr Mary Catharine OP Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Consecrated Life is broader. It involves all the forms like hermits, promises, etc. including nuns, monks, sisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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