Fr Pavone kicked out of RC Vhurch

[Anomaly]

Thoughts and opinions?

[Hna.Caridad]

I don't think he was kicked out of the RC Church (though he may have been kicked out of the RC Vhurch?)  My understanding is that he was laicized--he is now an ordinary Catholic like you and me, except that he still retains the capacity to administer the Sacrament of Reconciliation in emergencies.  (A side note:  I find it interesting that many people seem to equate laicization with excommunication.  I do think that way of thinking is somewhat in-line with what Lady Grey, Hot has been trying to discuss in her current thread over at VS.)

[Luigi]

This was not a snap decision. It's the result of a long and involved process, under the watchful eyes of at least two of his bishops. The Church doesn't laicize priests capriciously.

[Hna.Caridad]

If I were to be honest, I would say that the most disappointing thing about all of this is that once again, faithful Catholics had to rely on outside media to tell us that a priest was a bad actor.  This guy was laicized back in November and was still saying public Masses until December 17th.  From what I understand, a letter dated December 13th was sent to every bishop in the U.S. notifying them of the laicization and yet NONE of them had the courage to make that news public?  Pavone was a nationally renowned priest who cultivated a nationwide following and was in and out of just about every diocese in the U.S. over the past several years (including the one in which I currently live), and yet NONE of the U.S. bishops thought it was important to tell faithful Catholics that he was laicized and that his Masses weren't legitimate??  Thankfully, at least someone (a cowardly bishop who didn't want to break the news himself? maybe a diocesan employee somewhere?) had the good sense to leak the letter to CNA.  In a sense, I feel like I'm in 2002 reading the Boston Globe all over again.  While Catholic News Agency specializes in Catholic news, it's its own independent company--it's not an official arm of the Catholic Church.  Where was Catholic News Service?  Why do we have to rely on outside media to tell us this stuff when just about every bishop and/or diocese (not to mention the USCCB) has its own website, facebook page, twitter account, and/or all sorts of other means of getting information out to people? 

[dUSt]

That’s what you get when you don’t listen to your bishop. 

[Nunsuch]

4 hours ago, Hna.Caridad said:

If I were to be honest, I would say that the most disappointing thing about all of this is that once again, faithful Catholics had to rely on outside media to tell us that a priest was a bad actor.  This guy was laicized back in November and was still saying public Masses until December 17th.  From what I understand, a letter dated December 13th was sent to every bishop in the U.S. notifying them of the laicization and yet NONE of them had the courage to make that news public?  Pavone was a nationally renowned priest who cultivated a nationwide following and was in and out of just about every diocese in the U.S. over the past several years (including the one in which I currently live), and yet NONE of the U.S. bishops thought it was important to tell faithful Catholics that he was laicized and that his Masses weren't legitimate??  Thankfully, at least someone (a cowardly bishop who didn't want to break the news himself? maybe a diocesan employee somewhere?) had the good sense to leak the letter to CNA.  In a sense, I feel like I'm in 2002 reading the Boston Globe all over again.  While Catholic News Agency specializes in Catholic news, it's its own independent company--it's not an official arm of the Catholic Church.  Where was Catholic News Service?  Why do we have to rely on outside media to tell us this stuff when just about every bishop and/or diocese (not to mention the USCCB) has its own website, facebook page, twitter account, and/or all sorts of other means of getting information out to people? 

I agree with everything you say here, except for your reference to him as "renowned." He was, perhaps, notorious.... [I'm trying to remain civil.]

[little2add]

Fr. Frank A. Pavone, the National Director of “Priests for Life” and “right to life”advocate has been pre-maturely terminated, IRONIC!

[Hna.Caridad]

Please explain to me what you mean by "pre-maturely terminated"?  What I see is an adult who is having to face the consequences of his own words and actions, and now he's whining about it while others are trying to portray him as some kind of victim.  How is it wrong (or "pre-maturely terminating" someone) to expect a grown man to take responsibility for and accept the consequences of his own words and actions?  Perhaps you have special information or are more knowledgeable than all of the people involved in the very long process of his laicization?  Please explain your comment.  Thank you.

[chrysostom]

2 hours ago, Hna.Caridad said:

Please explain to me what you mean by "pre-maturely terminated"?  What I see is an adult who is having to face the consequences of his own words and actions, and now he's whining about it while others are trying to portray him as some kind of victim.  How is it wrong (or "pre-maturely terminating" someone) to expect a grown man to take responsibility for and accept the consequences of his own words and actions?  Perhaps you have special information or are more knowledgeable than all of the people involved in the very long process of his laicization?  Please explain your comment.  Thank you.

Terminated could either mean: 1) killed or 2) fired from a job. Premature termination could either mean 1) aborted or 2) fired precipitously...

[little2add]

8 hours ago, Hna.Caridad said:

Please explain

pre-maturely terminated or aborted, its all the same thing…

abortion     noun

abor·tion.     (ə-ˈbȯr-shən )

(2b)    informal + sometimes offensive : something regarded as horrifically or disgustingly bad

———————————————————————————————————————————————

The Pro-life activist Fr. Frank Pavone pre-maturely terminated or aborted.  

Very sad 

————————————————————————————————————————————————-

Prayer for Priests

Gracious and loving God, we thank you for the gift of our priests.
Through them, we experience your presence in the sacraments.

Help our priests to be strong in their vocation.
Set their souls on fire with love for your people.

Grant them the wisdom, understanding, and strength they need to follow in the footsteps of Jesus.
Inspire them with the vision of your Kingdom.

Give them the words they need to spread the Gospel.
Allow them to experience joy in their ministry.

Help them to become instruments of your divine grace.

We ask this through Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns as our Eternal Priest.

Amen.

Edited December 20, 2022 by little2add

[Hna.Caridad]

Wow, are you equating unborn babies with an unrepentant blasphemer?  The evidence of Frank Pavone's blasphemy was strong enough to get him laicized and I certainly haven't seen any evidence of responsibility or accountability (much less repentance) on his part--apparently, neither has anyone in Rome, and he's had multiple opportunities during this process to offer it. 

Equating an unborn baby to Frank Pavone's ego-driven self-destruction...  If that's the best the "pro-life" movement has to offer, it's not going to change any hearts and will only serve as further evidence of the blatant hypocrisy within the movement.  Sad.

[little2add]

35 minutes ago, Hna.Caridad said:

Sad

Truly

Eternal Father, we lift up to you these and all the clergy and religious of the world. Sanctify them. Heal them; guide them. Mold them into the likeness and holiness of Your Son, Jesus, the Eternal High Priest.

[Nunsuch]

Here is the statement from the Papal Nuncio to all US Bishops on the laicization of Frank Pavone. 

https://amarillodiocese.org/news/statement-from-apostolic-nuncio-archbishop-christophe-pierre-to-us-bishop

[little2add]

One of the primary sins, Father Pavone was found guilty of was  in canonical proceedings of blasphemous communications on social media

According to his eminence Archbishop Christophe Pierre Apostolic Nuncio.

It must of been a really bad thing, he said, to justify such a harsh penalty.   

I wonder what he said,  specifically? 
 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by little2add

[fides' Jack]

23 hours ago, Hna.Caridad said:

his Masses weren't legitimate??

No - that's false.  Once a priest, always a priest.  Ordination confers an indelible mark on the soul.  His Masses, as long as they are done correctly, are still valid Masses.  The process is called laicization, but that doesn't mean how we think of it.  He is not a layperson like we are.

But his Masses may be illicit.

I'm honestly torn on this issue.  Clearly he's guilty of blaspheming.  But anyone who watches movies with GD in them and sees no problem is also complicit in the exact same sin.  Moreover - he DID repent, publicly.  At least he repented of blaspheming.  What he seems unrepentant of is disobedience of his bishop.  Of that I still don't know the whole story.

Furthermore, he claims that he himself was unaware of the action taken against him until Catholic News Agency called him for a comment on it.

The fact that there has been disagreement between himself and his bishop for a decade is telling.  Telling of what, I don't know, because I don't know the details.

At the very least this has turned into a scandal, no matter how you look at it.

7 hours ago, little2add said:

Eternal Father, we lift up to you these and all the clergy and religious of the world. Sanctify them. Heal them; guide them. Mold them into the likeness and holiness of Your Son, Jesus, the Eternal High Priest.

Amen.

2 hours ago, little2add said:

I wonder what he said,  specifically? 

He got angry and used a GD.  

The blasphemy itself is certainly not enough to warrant laicization.  Disobedience may very well be.

Of course, the GD is what Fr. Pavone himself said is what the "blasphemy" allegation is in reference to.  It's entirely possible there is something else that hasn't been brought up.

16 hours ago, Hna.Caridad said:

How is it wrong (or "pre-maturely terminating" someone) to expect a grown man to take responsibility for and accept the consequences of his own words and actions?

We don't have all the info.  It's entirely possible that Fr. Pavone did take responsibility for any wrong-doing on his part.  He certainly seems at peace with the current goings-on (at least emotionally), though he stated he's going to keep fighting this.  He does have some legal action within the Church he can take.

2 hours ago, little2add said:

I wonder what he said,  specifically? 

Oh, and something else about having a container with an aborted baby on a table in his office during a talk he gave online (some are claiming it was an altar - but clearly not during Mass).  Certainly it was not as scandalous as putting a pachamama plant on the altar during Mass.

23 hours ago, Hna.Caridad said:

his Masses weren't legitimate??

Sorry, I was assuming you meant "legitimate", as in "valid".  The Latin root lex, legis would also allow the interpretation to mean "licit", which isn't the same thing.  I apologize if I misunderstood you.