Pope Francis will not say Fetus is a Person

[KnightofChrist]

6 minutes ago, Hna.Caridad said:

Yes, I read the interview and I'm definitely not confused.  You're "confused" because you want to be and no amount of explaining by anyone on Phatmass is going to unconfuse you.

Your disdain for Pope Francis has been evident on this phorum throughout his papacy.  And yes, you are part of a movement pulling followers away from the Roman Catholic Church.  Enjoy the new church you're creating, and please stop phishing Phatmass for adherents.

You avoid discussion of how Pope Francis likes confusion, and believes it can and was part of the works of the Holy Spirit.

As for your wanting to make this personal, sure historically I've objected to certain and various actions of Pope Francis. Namely and mainly how he's handled the sexual abuse crisis, all too often promoting known or highly suspected sexual abusers, or their defenders. Even rehabilitating or reinstating sexual abusers. Worse of all accusing abuse victims of calamity.

[KnightofChrist]

Historically relevant quote from a previous Pope on the same subject when Africans personhood was debated.

"We order and command all and each of the faithful of each sex that, within the space of fifteen days of the publication of these letters in the place where they live, that they restore to their pristine liberty all and each person of either sex who were once residents of said Canary Islands . . . who have been made subject to slavery (servituti subicere). These people are to be totally and perpetually free and are to be let go without the exaction or reception of any money." - Pope Eugene IV, Papal Bull - Sicut Dudum,1435

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by KnightofChrist

[Anomaly]

10 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

But when legal non-person human beings are the subject of 'animal testing' many do argue their legal status in addition to appealing to other fundamental principles. 

I can't see Pius XII saying "the Jews who are subjected to forced medical experiments are human beings. I will not say person because that is debated." Perhaps John Cornwell could... 

Nor can I see anyone making similar defenses in his favor had he made such a comment.

I do agree that his statements can be confusing.    I saw your point and re-read it a few times.  I felt he could have been clearer.   I don’t like how he moved away from arguing from being a person is reason enough.
  I am very antiabortion.   I consider it as murdering inconvenient people.  But I’ve found, statements like that shut down any discussion.   How can I change a mind or heart that won’t engage?   So I talk about fundamental principles, like how we all like puppies.  We don’t want them kicked down the street.  Why do we respect them as living beings?  How are they more or less deserving of respect than a toddler, an infant, a handicapped person, the mentally challenged human being?   If someone gets to thinking in those terms, they may understand abortion in a different light.
 Personage is mostly interpreted as a legal or social construct when used in general conversation.   Human being is much less open to a different interpretation.  In conversation/ interview, Pope clumsily moved from a debated word to human being.   IT’s clumsy and confusing a bit, but not as much or necessarily intentionally wicked as you feel it is.  
The good thing is, it got a few people to post and chat on Phatmass.  There’s that. 

[KnightofChrist]

1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

I do agree that his statements can be confusing.    I saw your point and re-read it a few times.  I felt he could have been clearer.   I don’t like how he moved away from arguing from being a person is reason enough.
  I am very antiabortion.   I consider it as murdering inconvenient people.  But I’ve found, statements like that shut down any discussion.   How can I change a mind or heart that won’t engage?   So I talk about fundamental principles, like how we all like puppies.  We don’t want them kicked down the street.  Why do we respect them as living beings?  How are they more or less deserving of respect than a toddler, an infant, a handicapped person, the mentally challenged human being?   If someone gets to thinking in those terms, they may understand abortion in a different light.
 Personage is mostly interpreted as a legal or social construct when used in general conversation.   Human being is much less open to a different interpretation.  In conversation/ interview, Pope clumsily moved from a debated word to human being.   IT’s clumsy and confusing a bit, but not as much or necessarily intentionally wicked as you feel it is.  

Thank you, I knew I wasn't the only one to find it confusing. It is still confusing and strange to me.

Confusing also is the position that he side stepped or was setting aside the personhood of a fetus. Because he's trying to reach out to people who would otherwise stop listening to him if he did. If that's true why did he just a few moments later compare abortion to hiring a hit man? Calling a fetus a person would too great a risk, it might turn people away. But accusing a woman of hiring a hit man to resolve a problem wouldn't? Comparing a "doctor" to a hit man wouldn't? No it doesn't make sense.

If I'm to accept your interpretation or the interpretations of others defending the Pope's comment. Then he greatly contradicts his apparent goal.

Again, I don't believe most common people make any real distinctions between human being and person. So not calling a human being a person is strange. It will cause confusion as long as the comment is remembered.

 

1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

The good thing is, it got a few people to post and chat on Phatmass.  There’s that. 

Certainly!

Edited December 3, 2022 by KnightofChrist

[Anomaly]

4 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

Thank you, I knew I wasn't the only one to find it confusing. It is still confusing and strange to me.

Confusing also is the position that he side stepped or was setting aside the personhood of a fetus. Because he's trying to reach out to people who would otherwise stop listening to him if he did. If that's true why did he just a few moments later compare abortion to hiring a hit man? Calling a fetus a person would too great a risk, it might turn people away. But accusing a woman of hiring a hit man to resolve a problem wouldn't? Comparing a "doctor" to a hit man wouldn't? No it doesn't make sense.

If I'm to accept your interpretation or the interpretations of others defending the Pope's comment. Then he greatly contradicts his apparent goal.

Again, I don't believe most common people make any real distinctions between human being and person. So not calling a human being a person is strange. It will cause confusion as long as the comment is remembered.

 

Certainly!

If I were to get in a discussion about abortion with someone, and this interview came up, I would certainly act as if they were crystal clear about abortion being wrong on a fundamental principle of how to treat a human being.   His comments can clearly be presented that way, regardless of the person comment.  It’s a purposeful choice to engage in discussion of it being confusing.  Why do it at all?   It certainly is of no benefit to convince a non catholic, no benefit to a marginal catholic, and to regular Catholics, it’s just a source of mutual irritation as to the opinion of the current pope. 
It’s like driving around after 3am. Nothing good is gonna happen and best to avoid unless it’s really necessary. 
Personally, I’m saddened that Catholics have wasted so much effort on details and nuances and have let abortion become co-opted to just a woman’s health issue.    I believe it’s mostly exaggerated opinions on bucket size while the house is burning down. 

[fides' Jack]

Nevermind.

I'll just say it's literally the pope's job description to clarify faith and morals, from the Catholic perspective.  He did not do so in this case, if anyone was confused.  I certainly was.  I don't see a way to massage what he said and to stretch it to fit a truly Catholic perspective.

Edited December 3, 2022 by fides' Jack
because I don't disagree with Anomaly's point

[KnightofChrist]

8 hours ago, Anomaly said:

His comments can clearly be presented that way, regardless of the person comment.  It’s a purposeful choice to engage in discussion of it being confusing.  Why do it at all?

Because 1) It does matter if a human being is a person, that's not something the Pope of all people can just side step, certainly not forever. I hope he will later make it clear that he in fact believes all human beings are persons. And what if he never makes it clear? What then? For one interview it could perhaps be forgiven. But shouldn't he make it clear later on that he will in fact say a fetus is a person? Will there not be a good time to say that?

2) In context to the overall answer it matters in regards to how bishops and clergy should handle abortion. Pope Francis seems to suggest some kind of separation of church and state? For example (and I believe this was part of his answer) when US bishops had previously proposed voting in favor of forbidding pro-abort politicians from communion. It received no support from the Vatican, and in fact was opposed. Forbidding pro-abort politicians from communion wasn't pastoral apparently. Based on that and his overall answer he wouldn't seem to like bishops demanding that pro-abort politicians "immediately return pristine liberty to preborn persons. These people are to be totally and perpetually free and are to be allowed to live without the exceptions or limitations."

7 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

Nevermind.

I'll just say it's literally the pope's job description to clarify faith and morals, from the Catholic perspective.  He did not do so in this case, if anyone was confused.  I certainly was.  I don't see a way to massage what he said and to stretch it to fit a truly Catholic perspective.

The problem is that he did, and that he did not.

That is what is confusing. He will say human being, he will not say person. He didn't want to say person, that would shutdown discussion with hard to reach people. But comparing abortion to hiring a hit man would also shutdown discussion with those same people. 

I do agree that abortion is like hiring a hit man. But that's the same as calling the act murder. It's going to be very hard to hear for people who find it hard to hear a fetus is a person. Such persons will see it as the Pope accusing a woman of hiring a hit man, and accusing a "doctor" of being that hit man. Frankly the comparison has more chance to shutdown discussion than saying a fetus is a person.

[little2add]

On 11/29/2022 at 12:40 AM, KnightofChrist said:

raise two questions: Is it right to get rid of a human being to resolve a problem? Second question: Is it right to hire a “hit man” to resolve a problem?

a third question may be apropos!

Third question: Does a woman’s right to control her own reproduction include a right to publicly funded induced abortion?

 

5 minutes ago, little2add said:

Second question: Is it right to hire a “hit man” to resolve a problem?

Also Embellish the second question to include. 

Is it right to hire using taxpayer publicly funded a “hit man” to resolve a problem?

[Anomaly]

10 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

Because 1) It does matter if a human being is a person, that's not something the Pope of all people can just side step, certainly not forever. I hope he will later make it clear that he in fact believes all human beings are persons. And what if he never makes it clear? What then? For one interview it could perhaps be forgiven. But shouldn't he make it clear later on that he will in fact say a fetus is a person? Will there not be a good time to say that?

2) In context to the overall answer it matters in regards to how bishops and clergy should handle abortion. Pope Francis seems to suggest some kind of separation of church and state? For example (and I believe this was part of his answer) when US bishops had previously proposed voting in favor of forbidding pro-abort politicians from communion. It received no support from the Vatican, and in fact was opposed. Forbidding pro-abort politicians from communion wasn't pastoral apparently. Based on that and his overall answer he wouldn't seem to like bishops demanding that pro-abort politicians "immediately return pristine liberty to preborn persons. These people are to be totally and perpetually free and are to be allowed to live without the exceptions or limitations."

The problem is that he did, and that he did not.

That is what is confusing. He will say human being, he will not say person. He didn't want to say person, that would shutdown discussion with hard to reach people. But comparing abortion to hiring a hit man would also shutdown discussion with those same people. 

I do agree that abortion is like hiring a hit man. But that's the same as calling the act murder. It's going to be very hard to hear for people who find it hard to hear a fetus is a person. Such persons will see it as the Pope accusing a woman of hiring a hit man, and accusing a "doctor" of being that hit man. Frankly the comparison has more chance to shutdown discussion than saying a fetus is a person.

Valid points.   I agree with you in general, but process them differently.   
What is better for me, and others, to encourage turning our hearts away from abortion?  Point out the confusing and muddled interview by the Pope?   Pointing them out, we only diminish any correct points he may have made, possibly reinforce our disenchantment with the pope and Catholics, fuels negativity, limits anything good.

He did say specifically, that it’s intentionally killing a human being. How is that okay?   Why could a human being be killed while living in the womb?   Because they’re dependent?   Does that make it okay for parents to kill post womb children when the tire of the challenge of feeding and raising them?    What about the handicapped?   What about the elderly with Alzheimer’s or chronic heart disease?   Should we kill them because we define them as humans, not persons?  

Does the pope say it’s okay to kill fetus persons but not fetus human beings?   I don’t think so. Then why waste time and energy pointing out his clumsy comments and distract from essential truths he’d did make?

 

And while I agree with most of your concerns, it’s the supposition of what’s more likely to happen in other people’s minds that I don’t.   I do think the Church should be very cautious in making too strident actions in politics with the media as decisive as it is.   Think about it.  For every statement a Priest, Bishop, Cardinal, Pope makes, there are clergy and lay persons that will jump at the chance to point out how too conservative, too liberal, incorrect, incompetent, unclear, uncaring, too soft, too hard, each statement.   We don’t live in a world with perfect people.  Mother Teresa had her valid critics.  

Edited December 4, 2022 by Anomaly

[Norseman82]

On 12/1/2022 at 9:45 AM, Hna.Caridad said:

 

Oh, Pope Francis is just SOOOOOOOOO confusing, isn't he @KnightofChrist?

 

Enjoy your new church that you're creating.

 

I think the response on YouTube by "XIOMARA BLANCO" says it best:  
"I’m a cradle 70 y/o Catholic lady , and also from Latin America. I was raised and taught the scriptures and the Catechism by good priests and nuns whom I trust because the vast knowledge they acquired in their religious formation. The regular laity were called by our Lord to do regular things like getting married and raise good children, so we don’t have the time to read and study all the encyclicals the Popes write, and therefore we rely on our priests to explain without ambiguity and with simplicity all we need to learn and practice. As you can see I’m far from being a theologian, I just know the basic teachings of the Gospel and Catechism, and try really hard to follow it, but from the beginning of this pontificate I could tell there’s something wrong and I’ve been very concerned by what Pope Francis has expressed because it seems to contradict what I have learn through all these 70 years from priests and previous Popes. Regarding the laity leaders, we must recognize there are very well formed and good intentioned people out there. Please only because they do not agree with and criticize Pope Francis in many issues cannot be condemned by you. It is the duty of the laity to speak up (with responsibility) when some religious leaders including the Pope say or do something wrong that as you said confuses the flock. We desperately need good Shepherds to guide us, but Jesús’ way please!"