Pope Francis will not say Fetus is a Person

[KnightofChrist]

"On abortion, I can tell you these things, which I’ve said before. In any book of embryology it is said that shortly before one month after conception the organs and the DNA are already delineated in the tiny fetus, before the mother even becomes aware. Therefore, there is a living human being. I do not say a person, because this is debated, but a living human being. And I raise two questions: Is it right to get rid of a human being to resolve a problem? Second question: Is it right to hire a “hit man” to resolve a problem? The problem arises when this reality of killing a human being is transformed into a political question, or when a pastor of the church uses political categories." - Pope Francis 

 

Source: https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2022/11/28/pope-francis-interview-america-244225

[little2add]

 

And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David (Luke 1:31–33).

4 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

I do not say a person

When Gabriel informed Mary about upcoming birth he didn’t mix words, he said: “you will conceive in your womb and bear a son”.   Sounds like a person, to me?

Merry Christmas 

[little2add]

It has been theorized that when Gabriel informed Mary that she was with child, she was 12 weeks along.

The heart of a fetus is fully developed by the 10th week of pregnancy.

(if your from Texas, you know that already)

Edited November 29, 2022 by little2add

[Luigi]

Pope Francis does say that the fetus is a human being. "Person," in this context, may have more to do with cognitive development, or being physically independent of the mother, or other kinds of technical distinctions. There's not enough information in this quotation for me to know what he's referring to, but that's probably what he means by "this is debated." But he does say, clearly, and twice, "living human being" and "human being" twice after that. I think his stance is pretty clear.  

[KnightofChrist]

5 minutes ago, Luigi said:

Pope Francis does say that the fetus is a human being. "Person," in this context, may have more to do with cognitive development, or being physically independent of the mother, or other kinds of technical distinctions. There's not enough information in this quotation for me to know what he's referring to, but that's probably what he means by "this is debated." But he does say, clearly, and twice, "living human being" and "human being" twice after that. I think his stance is pretty clear.  

I don't believe his stance is at clear at all if he cannot say a human being is a person.

The legal or political separation has historically allowed some human beings to be legally killed because they're not legal persons. Who still makes any such separation of the two for any other group of human beings? I can only think of people who hold some form of bigotry. 

[fides' Jack]

2 hours ago, little2add said:

It has been theorized that when Gabriel informed Mary that she was with child, she was 12 weeks along.

That's a very interesting theory.  I haven't heard of that before.  It seems contrary to her Fiat.  But worth reading up on. 

Thanks.

1 hour ago, Luigi said:

or other kinds of technical distinctions.

Specifically, legal distinctions.  The fact that he's backing off of the wording used in legal distinctions is frightening, because those are the issues that allow or disallow murder, by law.  He should state the Catholic position, which is that they are both human beings and persons.

[dUSt]

I think Pope Francis is just stating the obvious. He didn't say the fetus is not a person, he just said it's debated, which it is. I think anyone who approaches the abortion argument from a theological or religious perspective is making a mistake, because, unless you just love preaching to the choir, non-religious people don't care.

I think the pope likes to approach issues this way. I think he likes to use language that is accessible to the non-religious. By using "human being" instead of person, he's making it very black and white and science based.

[KnightofChrist]

22 minutes ago, dUSt said:

I think Pope Francis is just stating the obvious. He didn't say the fetus is not a person, he just said it's debated, which it is.

He stated he will not say person, because it is debated. Not just that it is debated.

It is debated, agreed, but who debates the Personhood of certain groups of human beings?

It was debated in pre1860s America if slaves were persons. It was also debated if Jews in 1930s to 40s Germany were persons.

Can you imagine the amount of confusion (at best) if a Pope were to state the same of Africans or Jews?

"The African/Jew is a living human being. I will not say person because it is debated." - Pope Confusion 

 

22 minutes ago, dUSt said:

I think anyone who approaches the abortion argument from a theological or religious perspective is making a mistake, because, unless you just love preaching to the choir, non-religious people don't care.

I think the pope likes to approach issues this way. I think he likes to use language that is accessible to the non-religious. By using "human being" instead of person, he's making it very black and white and science based.

The word Person isn't non-accessible to non-religious, human being and person for most common folk are interchangeable and is understood. 

[Nunsuch]

40 minutes ago, dUSt said:

I think the pope likes to approach issues this way. I think he likes to use language that is accessible to the non-religious. By using "human being" instead of person, he's making it very black and white and science based.

Two things: first, Pope Francis's academic training is as a scientist, so he is very comfortable in that world. Second, all of this is in translation from the original language. Do not presume that whatever ambiguity you perceive is also in the original (for the record, I don't think it's ambiguous at all).

One more thing: some people here seem to imply that they are literally more Catholic than the Pope. I find that troubling, and highly presumptuous.

[HollyDolly]

 Sometimes things get missed in translation. I don't know if he said this in Italian, Spanish, Latin or what.  My late father was german. Sometimes he'd say some phrase, and I'd ask him what it meant. He'd translate it, and depending on the words used, might say a particular word didn't have an equvilanet in english and would give you  some sort of idea  what it meant. Let's face it, we don't know when  a child receives their soul. Is it when the child is concieved, is it  when mom first feels the baby moving, or is it at the moment  when we  are born?  No one knows except God.  When we recieve our soul, it makes us a complete human being. I believe that when we someday find this out,  than there won't be this debate over whether a fetus is a person or not. Besides,  what does both the Old and New Testaments say on the subject?  What does the Torah or other holy jewish writings say on the subject? Surely   there must be a  jewish position on this whole subject, going back centuries. Abortion and birth control  have been around since the dawn of time. Unless people use  something to prevent unwanted pregnancies and use Moral Restraints when it comes to sex, the whole subject of abortion will always be an issue. I wonder if St.Augustine, St.Thomas Aquinas and other Doctors of the Church have to say if anything on the issue.

[KnightofChrist]

1 hour ago, Nunsuch said:

Two things: first, Pope Francis's academic training is as a scientist, so he is very comfortable in that world. Second, all of this is in translation from the original language. Do not presume that whatever ambiguity you perceive is also in the original (for the record, I don't think it's ambiguous at all).

One more thing: some people here seem to imply that they are literally more Catholic than the Pope. I find that troubling, and highly presumptuous.

It's the same script. Pope Francis says something odd or strange in a interview, "it's a translation error." "The true meaning was lost in translation.", "You're making yourself more Catholic than the Pope."

I don't care for American magazine but I highly doubt they're so unprofessional that they are unable to accurately translate the original Spanish. Which is linked in the article. 

Rather, I believe you make these points to avoid facing things about Pope Francis you don't wish to face. 

Pope Francis believes a fetus is a human being but doesn't want to say a fetus a person because it's debated.

This is confusing and a strange thing for a Pope to say.  

Lastly, as always I believe you are a good Catholic. If you do not return the same honor to me is not a matter I can control. 

 

 

[little2add]

3 hours ago, dUSt said:

non-religious people don't care.

A lot of so-called Religious people don’t care either 

[Nunsuch]

3 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

It's the same script. Pope Francis says something odd or strange in a interview, "it's a translation error." "The true meaning was lost in translation.", "You're making yourself more Catholic than the Pope."

I don't care for American magazine but I highly doubt they're so unprofessional that they are unable to accurately translate the original Spanish. Which is linked in the article. 

Rather, I believe you make these points to avoid facing things about Pope Francis you don't wish to face. 

Pope Francis believes a fetus is a human being but doesn't want to say a fetus a person because it's debated.

This is confusing and a strange thing for a Pope to say.  

Lastly, as always I believe you are a good Catholic. If you do not return the same honor to me is not a matter I can control. 

 

 

I have no desire to judge whether or not you are a good Catholic; I assume you are. I also assume the Holy Father is. I don't find his statement at all confusing. 

[KnightofChrist]

52 minutes ago, Nunsuch said:

I have no desire to judge whether or not you are a good Catholic; I assume you are. I also assume the Holy Father is. I don't find his statement at all confusing. 

You desired to passive aggressively judge 'some people' here for believing they are literally more Catholic than the Pope. Doesn't sound good but at least you could say they were people. 

Anyway, there aren't any legitimate debates on the Personhood of any other groups of human beings. And it would be completely unacceptable for the Pope or anyone else to say "The African/Jew is a living human being. I will not say person because it is debated."

[Nunsuch]

14 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

You desired to passive aggressively judge 'some people' here for believing they are literally more Catholic than the Pope. Doesn't sound good but at least you could say they were people. 

 

And thank you for your judgment of me. I'm not going to engage with you further.