Sundry bad feels about being a Catholic woman

[chrysostom]

3 hours ago, Lady Grey, Hot said:

underlying thought process

I'm sorry if I miss something since I haven't been following all the threads of the conversation, but I read your latest paragraph. Are you saying you actually believe these things? Or by "underlying" do you mean that you don't believe them per se but rather feel them to be this way, even though you don't want to?

Masculine being good and feminine being bad is not taught by the Church. It's incomprehensible to me. It's objectively false.

Ergo, I don't think you should feel bad in the slightest about being a Catholic woman. if you still do, it's not because of anything the Catholic Church teaches - and I'm sorry if you continue to feel that way, and I sincerely hope you find peace. It's been said before, but Mary is The Woman - and there is no speck of "bad" in her, in her nature, in anything related to her. Why? Because the only bad thing is sin.

Womanhood is not bad by nature. Quite the opposite, it is objectively good and willed by God, and to deny its goodness is to find fault with the Creator. And I hope you don't do that.

I hope this doesn't come across as overly confrontational. I don't mean to offend. God bless you and have a Merry Christmas!

[savvy]

13 hours ago, Lady Grey, Hot said:

By contrast, men, by virtue of being men, will always be fully masculine no matter what they do. So they will always be fully good, even if they engage in "feminine" things (like surrender to God).

Adam refusing to obey God, did not make him fully masculine or good.

Surrender to God is not inferior. Jesus himself surrendered to the Father’s will and said, I have come to serve, not to be served. He emptied himself.

On the contrary Lucifer was kicked out of heaven because he refused to surrender to God. He was prideful. Jesus was humble.

Christianity is a paradox, Catholicism even more so. It’s not based on what the world calls class distinctions.

 

[freedomreigns]

The more I have pondered this over the last few days, the more I have realized that this is at its core not actually about a perception of masculine and feminine, although certainly having an untruthful/twisted/distorted view of what being a man or a woman is about and coming to the conclusion that womanhood is inherently "bad" is certainly not helpful. I read back in this thread to a point when you were lamenting not being able to be a priest, because you in some way think that is the only indispensable mission in the Church, (which it is not.)  At the heart of this is a longing to be useful, relevant, valuable, respected.

The difficulty comes when we define ourselves by human standards and not by the standards in which God measures. (And we all do. Until at last God will purify us of self-seeking.) We are valuable and relevant and useful to the Kingdom of God because God defines us as such, not because we or other humans see it that way. As far as being respected humanly, it may or may not be something we have in this life. It doesn't need to make or break us. (But all of us would like to be.) Think of all the great things St. Paul stated he could accomplish... but if he "had not love" they would be nothing.  Love is God's currency, it is in fact the grace and life of God. Von Baltasar put it this way: "Love is life that gives itself away." And in our own ways every one of us is called to participate in the very life and mission of God. That is what is valuable- God Himself in our lives. 

For whatever reason you need some healing.  Perhaps some therapy? For whatever reason you are more comfortable with tormenting yourself with thoughts and feelings of being useless and worthless than of finding and embracing your actual dignity and excellence and the ways to love and serve you are being called to. To let yourself go beyond those thoughts and feelings would mean that you would need to risk actually making an effort in life- and that is a risk. That is the tragedy here- you are trapped in this mindset and it is keeping you from reaching your potential- as a person and as a woman. 

I do know a lot about this from personal experience.  I dealt with terrible struggles with feeling useless, bitter towards God, and self-pitying after a failed attempt at religious life that ended traumatically.  Trauma in my life and trauma even in the Church itself left me damaged for many years and it wasn't until I sought out some deep therapy, (for me it was psychodynamic and not CBT,) that I reached a level of healing in order to thrive.   I am very grateful.  

I also suggest, because you have a clear level of intelligence, that you feed that in your soul in that capacity.  Some good theological reading could help you. I can give recommendations if you are interested.  

[Lady Grey, Hot]

8 hours ago, freedomreigns said:

At the heart of this is a longing to be useful, relevant, valuable, respected.

On the nose.

8 hours ago, freedomreigns said:

We are valuable and relevant and useful to the Kingdom of God because God defines us as such

I suppose I both doubt that that can be enough and that God has actually defined me as such.

I'm in therapy, actually, but I don't see much reason to think it's going to make a difference. I've dumped to my therapist about pretty much all of this, and while talking about it can feel good, the fact remains that there's nothing she can do to change any of it. I'm not totally put off by the notion of having to make an effort - it's just that there's no straightforward way to do so. I wish someone would just give me my marching orders. When there's ambiguity, it's so much easier to stagnate. 

Even if healing were a possibility, I'm also young (relatively), and it stings to think that by the time I've healed/become mentally unhamstrung enough to be able to reasonably function again I'll be past the point of having any potential or being able to accomplish anything. Taking the time to heal feels like such a waste. I wish I could be doing the things everyone else my age is doing now; I'm not sure it's worth getting there a decade late. And there's nothing of any import waiting for me on the other side anyway, so why bother at all?

I'm kind of past the point of trying at all, honestly. Actually, I could pretty easily accept that excellence is not within my grasp, so long as I could find a quiet little corner of the universe where someone would assign me unambiguous tasks that are within my range of competency. My best life? Maybe not ultimately. The best I could manage (and a permanent respite from the pressure of having to care/try)? I'm betting yes. (Perhaps there's some part of me that would like to blame my personal lack of capacity on my sex more broadly - strikes a little less at the core of things, I suppose. My life basically feels like it's over.)

8 hours ago, freedomreigns said:

I can give recommendations if you are interested.  

I'll absolutely take suggestions, if you would like to offer them.

[Feankie]

"the fact remains that there's nothing she can do to change any of it."

And that is a very telling statement.  It's NOT up to your therapist to change any of it.  Do you expect your therapist to do the hard work of inner exploration, etc.? To hand you answers on a plate? And no human can give you "your marching orders."  That's a God "thing" that you must discover on your own with the help of a really theologically sound/trained therapist or spiritual director.  As SD's. we listen and guide.  We don't make judgements or "plans of action."  That must come from you.  Yes, it's hard work.  Sometimes it feels exhausting. And it's not done in a day....or a week...or a month.  

As a SD myself, I see patterns in your posts.  In verbiage and conclusions. I would really encourage you to begin 2023 by finding a SD or Catholic counselor who will walk with you, helping you discover and understand the what and why you are feeling the way you do.  There's a lot of work to be done here.  Please take the time to do it or you're doing yourself a great disservice.

[Lady Grey, Hot]

26 minutes ago, Feankie said:

"the fact remains that there's nothing she can do to change any of it."

And that is a very telling statement.  It's NOT up to your therapist to change any of it. 

You're right - this was perhaps a poor way to word this. What I was driving at is not that it is my therapist's responsibility to change it, but that it is impossible for anyone to change it (including me). My femininity is the ultimate problem, and that is inescapable.

[Nunsuch]

22 hours ago, Lady Grey, Hot said:

You're right - this was perhaps a poor way to word this. What I was driving at is not that it is my therapist's responsibility to change it, but that it is impossible for anyone to change it (including me). My femininity is the ultimate problem, and that is inescapable.

So how do you explain the millions (billions?) of women who are happy, fulfilled, productive, and so on? If being female were the problem, then that obviously would be impossible. I think -- hard as it may be to hear -- that you really need to look within yourself, but you can get help to do so, from a therapist and/or a spiritual director. 

As someone once said: "a pessimist is never disappointed." If you continue to reject the idea that change is possible, then it will be. But if you decide that you CAN change--that you can find happiness and purpose, and fulfillment--then that is the first step toward achieving what you want.

But you must make that choice. It can be done. It will not be easy. But it is not "impossible."

 

[tinytherese]

In The Bible, God promised Abraham many descendants for years. Isaac wasn't born till he was 100. He lived to see him grow up, marry, and have sons.

The former Pope Benedict's parents didn't meet and wed till his dad was 43 and his mom was 36.

St. Rita waited many years to finally become a nun.

Leonie, one of the sisters of St. Therese The Little Flower, left the religious life 3 times before permanently becoming a Visitation Sister.

I know a woman whose grandma entered a Carmelite convent after marrying, raising 7 kids, divorcing, and receiving an annulment from The Church.

One priest who visited my former parish entered the priesthood after 27 years of marriage following the death of his wife.

It wasn't too late for any of them.

[freedomreigns]

Hey Lady Grey.  Okay, a few thoughts on theological "good stuff" that might feed your intellect and your soul a bit... I am just giving a few thoughts, but would be happy to give more if you share a particular area of theology you are interested in...

I am currently loving Von Baltasar "Prayer."  Very worthwhile read!  

Also...have you ever prayerfully/thoughtfully read through the Catechism of the Catholic Church?  It seems "so basic" but really!  It is full of gems and truth and it is profound- and full of Scripture and citations from saints and Church fathers and Church documents... and it helps us to "view things with the mind of the Church." If somethings strikes you, it is easy to follow the citations and find more and more... 

Let me give you a little example from the CCC that is pertinent to the subject you have been struggling with.  I recommend the whole section, which is about the nature of man, and has lots of gems...  From Part One, Section Two, Chapter One:

"Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and  woman. 'Being man' or 'being woman' is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator.  Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity 'in the image of God.' In their 'being-man' and 'being-woman', they reflect the Creator's wisdom and goodness.

In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective 'perfections' of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband."

 

[Lady Grey, Hot]

49 minutes ago, freedomreigns said:

But the respective 'perfections' of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband."

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but this seems too obvious not to remark upon: if a man reflects God in both aspects of his identity, and a woman in only one, doesn't that make men a better reflection of God?

[freedomreigns]

19 minutes ago, Lady Grey, Hot said:

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but this seems too obvious not to remark upon: if a man reflects God in both aspects of his identity, and a woman in only one, doesn't that make men a better reflection of God?

You can find ways to take offense, or to decide women are inferior despite the CCC clearly stating otherwise, if you want to.  Free will and all.  Or you can look for good, true, beautiful ways to feed your soul.  You get to choose.  But it is antagonistic to pick things apart like that.  You don't get to pull that one over on me.   

You can take my suggestion to read some theological things to feed your soul, should you want to, but I am not going to be an apologist for everything you read.  You can use your sharp intellect for harm- to find what can be misconstrued as hurtful, and to completely ignore what is most obviously beautiful, edifying, true.  You have to option to "heat-seeking missile" something to pick  at.

Did you even notice how edifying it is?  Read these phrases again!  "Good and willed by God," "inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator," "one and the same dignity 'in the image of God.'" "reflect the Creator's wisdom and goodness."  "In no way is God in man's image."

I think you should stay clear away from this topic actually.  I would not recommend you read any more right now about women/men, etc.  If that is the take away you got from the CCC passage, heaven forbid you read something else that would require more discernment. Maybe read about the Trinity.  You still have quite a mind, just would like to see you use it constructively.  The Von Baltasar book on Prayer is really something. 

Peace dear one.