Sundry bad feels about being a Catholic woman

[Lady Grey, Hot]

Apologies - perhaps "trendy" was the wrong descriptor. I'm not trying to impugn the value of spiritual direction, nor its historical pedigree. All I meant was that I often see finding a spiritual director presented as a catch-all solution, which is not a trend I have noticed until recently.

 

10 hours ago, Feankie said:

May I ask.....why do you feel you would not receive any benefit/s from seeing a SD and would be reluctant to see one?

Actually, I imagine it would be of enormous benefit to me. My point is that I'm not worth it. In a Church with limited resources, those resources should be directed towards those who are doing (or will do) the most good - seminarians, priests, religious, and some select laypeople. There is a more than good chance I will never fall into any of those categories. I can't justify my need for maintenance outstripping my (non-existent) usefulness.

[caterinaquinas]

On 6/14/2022 at 11:34 PM, Lady Grey, Hot said:

I also can't get past what feminine vocations say about women. Something I sometimes heard about women religious is "What matters isn't what they do, but who they are." That is, the most important part of the equation is the fact that they are in a particular sort of relationship with God. Their actions (beyond choosing that relationship) are pretty incidental. Physical motherhood is the same. A woman ideally consents to becoming pregnant, but from that point the process just kind of happens to her. By contrast, the priesthood (just as the easiest male example), is very emphatically about what priests do. Exactly how far are we supposed to take the sexual metaphor of men being generative and women being receptive? Is it supposed to apply in every single situation/interaction? Do women, by their very nature, only exist to be acted upon - to not have their own actions really matter? That bothers me a lot.

Instead of saying "what matters isn't what they do but who they are", which only applies to certain communities, let's say "what they are is so much more important than what they do". I am pretty sure it is not really about masculinity vs femininity, but about the relationship between doing and being, the active life and the contemplative life (and everyone should have both). It is very true for both men and women, both lay and religious, but it is especially true for the religious, and the contemplative, because that is what they are called to do. It doesn't mean their actions are not important, but their being is what is essential and what makes their prayers and actions efficacious. Being is what makes you god and what makes you share in His power and love. Doing serves more as a tool, and it is generated by your being, which is why it always comes after the being. When they say "what matters isn't what they do", they meant to emphasize the relationship and relative importance between being and doing, not to cause a split between the two, nor is it meant to be taken literally.

As for women representing the receptive side, women are not called to be passively receptive, but proactively receptive, meaning their choice and their actions also matter, but ultimately it is God who leads the act, not them. It is only meant to be a metaphor that describes the proper relationship between man and God. In reality, both men and women are called to be proactively receptive to God, that's all it is saying. I wouldn't push the metaphor very far. Have you ever seen or heard of any man or woman who is either purely active or purely proactively receptive? I have not. It is not meant to be construed that way.

Are you still uncomfortable with these sayings after the explanation? I would say, don't take many things literally. Truth properly understood is always supposed to be more balanced  I would also try to understand why these sayings would trigger such a strong reaction.

FYI I don't think you getting SD would be a waste of resource. Your soul is important, and you do need assistance. 

2 hours ago, Lady Grey, Hot said:

I can't justify my need for maintenance outstripping my (non-existent) usefulness.

I am thinking maybe all your struggles rise from this, but God NEVER judges anyone based on usefulness. NEVER. Neither should we do the same to ourselves. 

All He wants is a child who trusts in His love and is happy to receive whatever gifts He has in store for her. If you are happy to receive, you will make Him happy.

[Dymphna]

7 hours ago, Lady Grey, Hot said:

Actually, I imagine it would be of enormous benefit to me. My point is that I'm not worth it. In a Church with limited resources, those resources should be directed towards those who are doing (or will do) the most good - seminarians, priests, religious, and some select laypeople. There is a more than good chance I will never fall into any of those categories. I can't justify my need for maintenance outstripping my (non-existent) usefulness.

These are very familiar feelings for me. And very wrong ones. I've done lots of psychotherapy and among us "clients" it's a totally familiar notion that those of us who need the crisis intervention most urgently are those who believe that they are not worthy of any help.

Or, if you prefer a more spiritual approach: Have a look at St. Ignatius rules for discernment of the spirits (in his "spiritual exercises"). Especially those of the second week, where the evil spirit disguises itself as an angel of light, starting out with good thoughts - but with the only purpose to damage and destroy. To me, it seems like you might start out with the good idea that you don't want to be a burden - but that then quickly leads to you thinking "A spiritual guide would waste his time on me" and next thing you forbid yourself from getting one.

Sorry, but that is restricting God. You have no idea what he can make out of you if you'd allow him to work with you, and your part in this is to do everything you can for your spiritual development and not hinder yourself from it.

Also, a spiritual guide is trained to recognize and discern him- or herself when someone is  a waste of their time. Please give them the respect they deserve by allowing them to decide themselves whether they find it  a good thing to accompany you for some time or not.

Don't get trapped - a line of thought that ends with something like "I'm a useless person" is not from God, no matter how good the starting idea was. And now I better get off my pulpit - ahem.

[JHFamily]

13 hours ago, Lady Grey, Hot said:

My point is that I'm not worth it.

None of us is worth it.

Yet, all of us are worth it because we're all made in the image and likeness of God. We are all called to holiness. We are all called to "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." God has made every single one of us for heaven.

Your perceptions of worth seem, well, in my opinion, reprehensible. (I know that seems rather strong, but I have the perception that you are very adamant about women's worthlessness.)

God has work for each and every one of us, and if we just thumb our nose at it and say, "Well, not that's not important enough to do," than we are contributing to the destruction of the Church. 

[Lady Grey, Hot]

18 hours ago, caterinaquinas said:

It is only meant to be a metaphor that describes the proper relationship between man and God. In reality, both men and women are called to be proactively receptive to God, that's all it is saying.

Right. Two questions, then:

1. Does this also describe the proper relationship between men and women?

2. (This is not intended to be dependent on Question 1). Doesn't this mean that men, being generative, are more God-like?

[Feankie]

Since this thread has taken a "definite turn" , would it be better to move the discussion/questions to the Debate Table?

[caterinaquinas]

On 6/21/2022 at 6:56 PM, Lady Grey, Hot said:

Right. Two questions, then:

1. Does this also describe the proper relationship between men and women?

2. (This is not intended to be dependent on Question 1). Doesn't this mean that men, being generative, are more God-like?

1. I would say don't push it too far. In general it could be the case to some extent in some situations, but in practice it also depends on the cultural context and the nature/desire of the actual people involved. It is a case-by-case scenario, not black-and-white. There are plenty of female saints who "give order" to men, and they are holy and being the voice of God. It would be more beneficial to be natural and focus on the virtues.

2. By no means. Men are only more generative in a sexual relationship. Biologically speaking women are the ones who can nurture life in their womb but men can't. God created both men and women in His image. God is both masculine and feminine loosely speaking. For us human beings, it is ultimately the spiritual things that matter the most. The biological difference gives men and women a different endowment to begin with but we all move towards the same end. Focusing too much on individual differences (or gender differences) can distract us from the true end.

[tinytherese]

I saw the thread on Open Mike. Sorry I didn't read threw this one, but this is what I think.

Perhaps the term "spiritual motherhood" just doesn't resonate with you. Perhaps you could think of it as "spiritual sisterhood". It's really just loving God's people.

You can ask yourself, "How can I love my neighbor?" Do you notice someone shyly sitting or standing at an event by themselves? Introduce yourself and others your with. When you hear about or notice others suffering, pray for them.

Volunteer for causes you're passionate about. Offer to be a godmother or sponsor for those going through RCIA. Ask your priest if he needs help with anything. With a master's in theology, you can become a pastoral associate which serves people at your parish such as to the home bound, in the hospital, or prison. If you want to become a spiritual director, here are programs I've heard recommended to get the proper education and training.

 

https://divinemercy.edu/academics/spiritual-direction-certificate/

https://avila-institute.org/

https://imf.saintvincentseminary.edu/welcome/grow-2/programs/spiritual/

 

https://www.omvusa.org/lanteri-center/

https://divineprovidence.org/school-of-spiritual-direction/

https://holyapostles.edu/academics/   

 

This website sells study guides on Church documents about what it means to be a woman. They can also connect you with other women to discuss these materials or help you start your own group. https://www.endowgroups.org/

Edited July 4, 2022 by tinytherese
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[freedomreigns]

 

Hello.    I didn't actually read through this thread, but I have some experience with overthinking things and tormenting myself with thoughts of being "less than" and finding supposed philosophical or theological justifications for my self-pity.  So, having not read everything, I still feel qualified to offer a few thoughts from one with similar trains of thought.

"I have never wanted to have a family of my own, and I am perfectly content to remain single on account of that, but even then, I don’t get to “opt out” of motherhood. I can’t turn around without someone trying to shove “spiritual motherhood” down my throat. I struggle to desire to be part of a church that seems to want me to be something that I don’t want to be.

I feel completely useless because I’m not ordainable. I hate that I am never going to perform any truly useful service—that I am never going to be anything but a burden and a drain on the Church’s resources."

One thought I had was whether or not you had ever read "Woman" by Edith Stein, and/or looked into a good biography of her?  She was brilliant, and broke down some "traditional female expectations" of her own, and in that particular book she explores in her own time and place and mind her thoughts on womanhood, and she certainly doesn't reduce our value to "not being valuable" because we aren't men. She does also address the "not ordainable" point, although I don't remember exactly what she wrote. 

She has a passage in there specifically about women who are single and not married in the world, by the way.  She does talk a lot about spiritual motherhood, but to be fair "spiritual fatherhood" is talked about a lot in Catholicism too, so this is not a gender specific concept.  If you are going to read her, please do not dissect everything she wrote and try to find something to disagree with, or to feel bad about. Look for what is helpful and edifying to you and leave what is not. 

"There are so many fine characteristics I have seen exhibited by men which I wish to cultivate in myself. But all I ever hear is that I need to get back in my place and stop trying to be something I’m not—that I’m undermining men trying to be masculine."

Who is telling you this?  Could you just ignore people? Maybe don't ask for anyone's opinion?  If you are excelling at something because you are, for instance, a direct communicator- that doesn't undermine anyone. But people talk. People are critical of others. Especially of those in leadership positions.  Always.  Being in leadership, (maybe that is the more traditionally masculine kind of thing you are talking about?)  comes with that. It is human nature.  And it is human nature to care what other people think as well, but maybe that is something for you to work on. Actually, being less sensitive to the opinions of others is something men are generally better at.    Lucky ducks.  

"It might be said, as a general rule, that fathers tend to prepare their sons and protect their daughters. I want to be someone who can stand on my own two feet. I want my work in the world to matter. I want to be all I can be. But I feel as though, by creating me as a woman, my Heavenly Father is saying no to all of that. He is saying that He thinks I have no potential. That I’m not capable. That He doesn’t, for lack of a better term, believe in me. After all, as a daughter, I should just be content to embrace being cosseted and leave all the hard work to my brothers. And if God thinks all that, then it must be true. That cuts me to the core."

I really don't see how you are coming to the conclusion that God doesn't expect hard and great things of women, or that God doesn't value women. For instance, I am a nurse. I guarantee God is asking hard things of me. Things that are physically, mentally, and emotionally very challenging. My work in the world matters just as much as anyone else's.  God is not coddling me. Look at the women around you. They have challenges, griefs, joys, opportunities, successes, failures, difficult decisions to make... just like men.   

God expects all of us to respond with His grace to the challenges that life presents us, which I promise both men and women have challenges in life.  Is this some kind of thing in which YOU don't think that traditional women's roles are valuable? Are YOU discounting the difficulty or value of something traditional, like women giving birth, raising children, managing a household, working to support the family, etc.? Or the challenges or value of consecrated life? God doesn't coddle any of us.  That being said, all of us, men and women are all in a child-like position to God, we all have to rely on Him and His protection and guidance. None of us are "standing on our own two feet."   God does call women to "be all they can be," whether that be in careers, even those that might be considered to be male-dominated, or in staying home/managing the house/etc.

It seems that one real difficulty is that YOU don't see the value of women. Or human dignity apart from "accomplishment." This might be less of a spiritual problem and more of a psychological hang up.  In either case, I wish you peace.  

[savvy]

Grey Hot Lady,

Sometimes certain language is used to explain  things that cannot be easily explained.

In the Theist worldview God creates the world from the outside, God is outside of creation. Hence God is bridegroom to the church. The church here being both men and women. Both are to be receptive and open to God’s will.

The vision always comes before the paperwork. The saints built their vision, they did not wait for church officials to file their paperwork. 
 

Vatican 2, said they couldn’t legislate a charism. They had no authority. A church council did not decide what gifts or call the Apostles or Mary should have. God did.

 

Its about discovering what gifts we have personally received from the Holy Spirit and what God is calling us to do with them.

Not waiting for it to be legislated from on high by the church. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lady Grey, Hot]

On 12/16/2022 at 11:26 AM, freedomreigns said:

but to be fair "spiritual fatherhood" is talked about a lot in Catholicism too,

In my own purely anecdotal experience, while I do hear spiritual fatherhood talked about in some contexts, it's not portrayed as the be-all and end-all of male existence. We don't bend over backwards to say that any activity a man engages in is an expression of spiritual fatherhood. No one's running around saying, for instance, that St. Jerome's preparation of the Vulgate is a wonderful illustration of his generativity. We can accept him as a diligent and able translator and leave it at that. Men are allowed to have identities outside of their potential parenthood; women, it seems to me, are not. They are always viewed in light of their maternity. To pull a quote of my own from earlier in the thread:

Quote

My current issue is centered more around my newer impression that women don't get to be any of the good things - or if they do, they must necessarily be them in a soft, fiddly, delicate way. We can't celebrate Joan of Arc's courage as a good thing in its own right; rather, we have to spin it as being an example of her "spiritual maternity."

(Also, I think physical fatherhood generally has more positive connotations - it's vested with more authority and is less physically debilitating/destructive. One has to wonder if this distinction doesn't extend to spiritual parenthood as well.)

 

On 12/16/2022 at 11:26 AM, freedomreigns said:

If you are excelling at something because you are, for instance, a direct communicator- that doesn't undermine anyone.

The trouble is not that I actually do excel at "masculine" things, but that I would like to. I'm pretty stereotypically feminine - not physically imposing, averse to conflict (and thus prone to appeasing people), easily manipulated, shy and retiring. I wish I weren't that way - I wish I were decisive and took initiative and knew how to stand my ground. But if God chose to make me such that I am not an exceptional woman who embodies masculine attributes, is the fact that I wish I did rebelling against my nature?

But if I take the lead when there is a man there qualified to do so, doesn't that undermine him (since taking the lead is naturally a masculine thing)? Doesn't that hamper his development of his "authentic masculinity"? Or if, on principle, I politely decline some chivalrous gesture, what if I somehow make the man feel less whole/don't give him his due? Doesn't that undermine him? Doesn't that hamper his development of his "authentic masculinity"? I'm not saying that I agree with these statements - I'd actually really prefer not to - but that is the sort of rhetoric I am talking about. To pull another of my own quotes from earlier in the thread:

Quote

I have found myself in the thick of a Catholic peer group that is more conservative than any I have ever been exposed to before. In particular, there is a heavy emphasis on "authentic masculinity" and "authentic femininity" - with all the accompanying rhetoric about strength and courage and leadership (for men) and beauty and being relational and not striving (for women). This is probably illustrative: the parish book studies going on right now are on Wild at Heart and Captivating. These ideas obviously have to come from somewhere, and I have a nagging fear that they hold more weight than I would like them to.

This is an absolutely formative piece of how I have reached the conclusion that God desires nothing for me and expects nothing of me. After all, if my essence is just to sit there and look beautiful and be an object for chivalry/male fulfillment generally - if that is the most important thing about me - then it would seem that my actions matter very little. By contrast, if I were a man, they would matter a great deal. 

On 12/16/2022 at 11:26 AM, freedomreigns said:

It seems that one real difficulty is that YOU don't see the value of women.

You're right - I don't. Given the formulation above, how could I?

[Lady Grey, Hot]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:35 PM, savvy said:

Its about discovering what gifts we have personally received from the Holy Spirit and what God is calling us to do with them.

Not waiting for it to be legislated from on high by the church. 

I think the trouble here is that at this juncture, the Church has already spoken. Women are intrinsically a certain (inferior, as far as I can determine) way, and that underlies everything about them. There's not really room for debate anymore.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Lady Grey, Hot

[Feankie]

Let me ask you a few questions......Do you view priesthood (administration of the sacraments) as a source of power? What is it about masculinity that you would like to emulate? Are you looking for respect and believe the male ordained priesthood or diaconate is the only answer? 

As for you saying the Church has spoken that women are intrinsically inferior......where did you get that idea?  Every person is called to be an image of God. That is a tremendously important and holy vocation to embrace. And women have the same vocation as men in this regard.  Hence, we all part of the royal priesthood of a people set apart. And that is not a men's club by any means. Women do not need to imitate men to image God.

I believe God desires both men and women to be mobilized in ministry - but in different ways. It takes time, reflection, soul-searching, the assistance of a spiritual director, etc. to determine where you are called AND understand why you cannot assume a position the Church/Tradition/Scripture teaches is not the role of women.

Please don't give up and live with a wounded heart of stone.  There is a place for you in the Church, an important place, as we each have a role to play in God's plan.  I will pray for you.

[Lady Grey, Hot]

15 minutes ago, Feankie said:

Do you view priesthood (administration of the sacraments) as a source of power?

Not primarily. I see it as the only form of service that actually makes a legitimate difference.

17 minutes ago, Feankie said:

Are you looking for respect and believe the male ordained priesthood or diaconate is the only answer? 

What I'm looking for more than anything is a purpose (and probably a certain chosenness). I want to actually be useful, and that is the one thing I am incapable of being in the Church. Nothing I do will ever matter for its own sake - it only matters insofar as it points back to the activity of priests. And if nothing I do will ever matter, then I will never matter - I will always be at best superfluous and at worst a burden.

35 minutes ago, Feankie said:

What is it about masculinity that you would like to emulate?

Strength, intelligence, reason, effectiveness, emotional continence, heroism, courage. Anything that would facilitate my being taken seriously, really. I also, frankly, envy male fraternity - men seem to be capable of much deeper friendships than women. I've thought from age 13 or 14 that being an honorary male was pretty much the highest thing I could aspire to - that if I got to the point where men took me as seriously as they take each other, I'd have it made.

20 minutes ago, Feankie said:

Women do not need to imitate men to image God.

Except men embody all the desirable traits of God (see above), while women are stuck being nurturing and gentle and receptive. Given that, how could I not desire to imitate men?

16 minutes ago, Feankie said:

understand why you cannot assume a position the Church/Tradition/Scripture teaches is not the role of women.

I understand why I cannot (and even if I were inclined to, I'm certainly not smart enough to argue the theology of it). What I am grappling with is the logical implications of that: God, who had it within His power to make me otherwise, nonetheless made me female, and thus inherently incapable of performing the most necessary role in the Church. What does that decision say about me? What sort of commentary is He making on me?

[savvy]

6 hours ago, Lady Grey, Hot said:

I think the trouble here is that at this juncture, the Church has already spoken. Women are intrinsically a certain (inferior, as far as I can determine) way, and that underlies everything about them. There's not really room for debate anymore.

It’s basically saying that Jesus picked the Apostles and not a council of Bishops so the church has no authority to change it. This does mean those who are not priests are inferior. 
 
Everybody has their own call, that can’t be legislated. 
 

You keep arguing that the priesthood is the most important thing, not it’s not. It’s a specific call. Marriage is a call too, consecrated life is a call too. There is a diversity of charisms in the church. 
 

The attitude that everybody’s call and gifts should be legislated opens the door to Bishops deciding what gifts people should have. It’s the ultimate form of clericalism.

The saints built their vision they were not waiting for Bishops to file the paperwork.