Roe v Wade may be overturned?

[Lilllabettt]

On 5/3/2022 at 1:31 PM, dUSt said:

I remember so many people were against voting for Trump arguing that Roe vs Wade would never be overturned no matter what Trump did. Despite all the bad, this is some good that might come from it. We'll see.

I remember this as well. If id known this would happen i might have voted for him. I didnt think it was really possible...

[tinytherese]

7 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

I remember this as well. If id known this would happen i might have voted for him. I didnt think it was really possible...

Ditto for me. I voted third party each time he ran.

[Credo in Deum]

It's some promising news that the USA is moving in the right direction on the matter. Murder is unconstitutional. 

[debc]

I don't believe abortion will ever be gone, not every state will say it's illegal, pills shouldn't be banned or will be much easier to get than surgical abortion and if no exception for rape, incest etc. I don't think many states will abide by it. There is also no guarantee things wont change in another 10 years. If you don't change hearts, if you don't see crimes inflicted on a woman like rape or her brother impregnating her with compassion, not just words, if you don't see beyond the talking points of both sides, things will never really change.

I do think it is a step forward but since our country has major issues with affordable healthcare, steps have to be taken to take care of children born with out resources others have. Giving pregnant mothers help until baby is born or a year after, isn't going to solve many problems. A leader of the Pro Life movement years ago, said they do have work to do in that regard.

Also if a baby is viable from conception on, then it should be legally a baby if the mom is killed. A mom asked me why her baby at 8 months in utero isn't a tax deduction yet? Why doesn't her boyfriend have to help with medical bills? I didn't know what to tell her, the Catholic church didn't recognize unborn babies in the same way they do now, years ago. If you don't give dignity and respect to the embryo, then no one else will see it that way. You can't keep throwing examples to prove you are right when there are other examples on the other side to say otherwise. It's always a standoff that way. One woman has a baby from rape, she's a hero, another says abortion helped her heal, she was close to a breakdown after her rape, one woman is traumatized after an incest based pregnancy, wondering how the baby will be, will it know it's history one day and be angry or not healthy, another is grateful at 12 she could start to heal from her dads incest and not carry his baby for 9 months.

The facts for abortion have to be the facts but both sides will always have stories to prey on emotions and the disregard on both sides to say nothing is concrete, nothing is the same for everyone will keep good debate always impossible.

I hope for our country things do get better but I see women who are desperate always seeking out alternatives in illegal abortions or just crossing lines to get one elsewhere. .Sadly it might lessen, but never go away. Laws didn't stop it before, just kept it hidden and shame and not talking about it until decades later, kept statistics down.

Edited May 7, 2022 by debc

[dUSt]

Great post @debc.

[Credo in Deum]

5 hours ago, debc said:

I don't believe abortion will ever be gone, not every state will say it's illegal, pills shouldn't be banned or will be much easier to get than surgical abortion and if no exception for rape, incest etc. I don't think many states will abide by it. There is also no guarantee things wont change in another 10 years. If you don't change hearts, if you don't see crimes inflicted on a woman like rape or her brother impregnating her with compassion, not just words, if you don't see beyond the talking points of both sides, things will never really change.

I do think it is a step forward but since our country has major issues with affordable healthcare, steps have to be taken to take care of children born with out resources others have. Giving pregnant mothers help until baby is born or a year after, isn't going to solve many problems. A leader of the Pro Life movement years ago, said they do have work to do in that regard.

Also if a baby is viable from conception on, then it should be legally a baby if the mom is killed. A mom asked me why her baby at 8 months in utero isn't a tax deduction yet? Why doesn't her boyfriend have to help with medical bills? I didn't know what to tell her, the Catholic church didn't recognize unborn babies in the same way they do now, years ago. If you don't give dignity and respect to the embryo, then no one else will see it that way. You can't keep throwing examples to prove you are right when there are other examples on the other side to say otherwise. It's always a standoff that way. One woman has a baby from rape, she's a hero, another says abortion helped her heal, she was close to a breakdown after her rape, one woman is traumatized after an incest based pregnancy, wondering how the baby will be, will it know it's history one day and be angry or not healthy, another is grateful at 12 she could start to heal from her dads incest and not carry his baby for 9 months.

The facts for abortion have to be the facts but both sides will always have stories to prey on emotions and the disregard on both sides to say nothing is concrete, nothing is the same for everyone will keep good debate always impossible.

I hope for our country things do get better but I see women who are desperate always seeking out alternatives in illegal abortions or just crossing lines to get one elsewhere. .Sadly it might lessen, but never go away. Laws didn't stop it before, just kept it hidden and shame and not talking about it until decades later, kept statistics down.

Yeah, clearly the law will not be our savior, but it's a society's declaration regarding its moral boundaries and the more those boundaries are ordered toward Christ and not away from Him, the better off that society will be and those who live in it.

 

Of course we need to approach serious crimes perpetuated towards women like rape and incest with compassion, but just like with laws, we have to know that for some there will never be enough compassion.  At some point we all reach the "this is a hard saying, who can hear it" moment in our faith and we're called to move forward in obedience to Christ, as Peter did in the Gospel.   

The same goes for the plea towards the economic, since there are women who have the best healthcare and financial stability and who still get and want abortions.  As for welfare programs and healthcare I think there needs to be huge reforms, however, these reforms shouldn't go to further cover/support unhealthy lifestyles and choices.   We need to combat willful fatherlessness, deadbeat men, promiscuity, hook-up culture, and etc with less and NOT more social safety nets.  In short we need to outlaw abortion AND stop incentivising single parenthood. We need to get rid of no fault divorce and contraception in order to further instill in the youth the absolute necessity for self-restraint and self-mastery.  We have only arrived at where we are today because we have chopped down those pillars first.   

No Catholic with common sense will expect these sins to completely go away, since this is not Heaven or a Utopia.  We know sadly some are going to hell, however, our duty is to do everything we can within reason to make sure as few as possible are lost. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Credo in Deum

[debc]

Al

24 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

Yeah, clearly the law will not be our savior, but it's a society's declaration regarding its moral boundaries and the more those boundaries are ordered toward Christ and not away from Him, the better off that society will be and those who live in it.

 

Of course we need to approach serious crimes perpetuated towards women like rape and incest with compassion, but just like with laws, we have to know that for some there will never be enough compassion.  At some point we all reach the "this is a hard saying, who can hear it" moment in our faith and we're called to move forward in obedience to Christ, as Peter did in the Gospel.   

The same goes for the plea towards the economic, since there are women who have the best healthcare and financial stability and who still get and want abortions.  As for welfare programs and healthcare I think there needs to be huge reforms, however, these reforms shouldn't go to further cover/support unhealthy lifestyles and choices.   We need to combat willful fatherlessness, deadbeat men, promiscuity, hook-up culture, and etc with less and NOT more social safety nets.  In short we need to outlaw abortion AND stop incentivising single parenthood. We need to get rid of no fault divorce and contraception in order to further instill in the youth the absolute necessity for self-restraint and self-mastery.  We have only arrived at where we are today because we have chopped down those pillars first.   

No Catholic with common sense will expect these sins to completely go away, since this is not Heaven or a Utopia.  We know sadly some are going to hell, however, our duty is to do everything we can within reason to make sure as few as possible are lost. 

Also with all due respect, I don't think contraception is the evil but the hookup culture and lack of respect of women made my daughter's lives in 20's lonely. I don't know why so many think this is "fun". Also you can't ban something that most religions and people do not think is bad. Contraception might not be for some Catholics but for others, even very religious groups of Christians and Jews, not "evil". I don't judge them and wont go there with abortion debate.

I hope like with most things, when you get so far out in one area, you pull back. Kids fooled around for many centuries, premartial sex is not new but the "anything goes" has made many men not look at marriage or relationships as long lasting. No one fights for their marriage, no one is taught "boring can be good", you need to work at things to make them work. All marriages have bad periods, some short, some longer.  No one should as an old Catholic woman told me, be told "you made your bed, you're married to this abusive alcoholic for life" by a priest. She kicked him out but never got an annulment, the rules changing every decade. No one should feel stuck but yes, it's too easy to just want a change of scenery.

You can't have a woman have a baby she doesn't want and not care about how it is raised or how it is treated. My mom knew women in the 60's who were awful mom's having children they didn't want, they stayed married but were miserable. There is so many things that a broad brush will every cover and so many intricacies. When Sisters of Life help a singe mom, they don't judge, they love, but no one loves the woman long term usually. As the child grows and needs help, working at a low paying job, mom will always need some help. We need good child care for children and education so a mom can support her kids. I don't agree with forever help but if you don't give a good base, they will falter. We never do things with much thought, policies etc. Some of them have me scratching my head.

My friends in England have good healthcare, no complaints, good childcare and she gets a year off from her teaching job to get settled after baby was born. Nothing is perfect but when she was here was shocked at what we pay for insurance, then have copays and hardly any time off for children. Prayer and more prayer for better decisions by all, laws and personally.

[Credo in Deum]

13 minutes ago, debc said:

Also with all due respect, I don't think contraception is the evil but the hookup culture and lack of respect of women made my daughter's lives in 20's lonely. I don't know why so many think this is "fun". Also you can't ban something that most religions and people do not think is bad. Contraception might not be for some Catholics but for others, even very religious groups of Christians and Jews, not "evil". I don't judge them and wont go there with abortion debate.

Yeah, we can agree to disagree.  Me personally I don't see how you can't see that contraception is what spawned the hookup culture.  As Ven. Fulton J. Sheen said the irony about birth control is the people who use it neither believe in birth or control. 

You absolutely can ban something lots of people think of as being good and you should especially if it is bad. Most of the Christian denominations that now accept contraception didn't in the past, however, they went with that "we must change with the times" mentality.  Furthermore the judgment of individuals does not mean we cannot judge things as being good or bad. Even in terms of judging individuals we can also do this under certain circumstances such as when the person reveals the motives of their heart or in the case of obstinate public sinners.

25 minutes ago, debc said:

I hope like with most things, when you get so far out in one area, you pull back. Kids fooled around for many centuries, premartial sex is not new but the "anything goes" has made many men not look at marriage or relationships as long lasting. No one fights for their marriage, no one is taught "boring can be good", you need to work at things to make them work. All marriages have bad periods, some short, some longer.  No one should as an old Catholic woman told me, be told "you made your bed, you're married to this abusive alcoholic for life" by a priest. She kicked him out but never got an annulment, the rules changing every decade.

 You seem to be all over the place with this but unwilling to name the evils that are responsible for the things that are ruining marriages or attacking the institution of marriage.  Namely, contraception and no-fault divorce. Let me be clear, I'm not saying that this will eliminate completely unhappy marriages, marriages made out of coercion, or marriage made under false pretenses, but it will cut back on the number of them being made.  Just like how outlawing abortion won't end abortion, but to say it wont stem the number of abortions is just untrue. 

35 minutes ago, debc said:

No one should feel stuck.....

I don't completely agree as people do not have a right to not feel stuck, especially those who put themselves in their situation by the abuse of their free will.   Obviously, those who have been put in situations through no fault of their own should have options, but that doesn't mean any option.  Sadly, sometimes being unfairly stuck is the cross Christ asks some to carry, as He did for us.   

44 minutes ago, debc said:

You can't have a woman have a baby she doesn't want and not care about how it is raised or how it is treated. My mom knew women in the 60's who were awful mom's having children they didn't want, they stayed married but were miserable. There is so many things that a broad brush will every cover and so many intricacies. When Sisters of Life help a singe mom, they don't judge, they love, but no one loves the woman long term usually. As the child grows and needs help, working at a low paying job, mom will always need some help. We need good child care for children and education so a mom can support her kids. I don't agree with forever help but if you don't give a good base, they will falter. We never do things with much thought, policies etc. Some of them have me scratching my head.

That's the rub though, right?  You don't believe in forever help but you can't come up with a number of years that represents "the perfect amount of compassion".  This is why you need to drop the economic security position completely when it comes to abortion. It is a false premise that the promoters of abortion don't even believe in.  For example ask a pro-choice person if they want to see the homeless, mentally ill, and drug addicted people living on the street killed because no one takes care of them for life.  Most of them will say "no" because they understand how evil it would be to say yes, and yet a unborn child's life in there eyes deserves less consideration? That's not logically or morally consistent. 

 

51 minutes ago, debc said:

My friends in England have good healthcare, no complaints, good childcare and she gets a year off from her teaching job to get settled after baby was born. Nothing is perfect but when she was here was shocked at what we pay for insurance, then have copays and hardly any time off for children. Prayer and more prayer for better decisions by all, laws and personally.

Yeah, I have heard the same thing from those in other European countries when it comes to how much Americans pay.  Yet, more socialized healthcare doesn't always mean more quality healthcare, just look at the poo show known as the VA. lol

[debc]

Yes, the VA....very sad.

I was all over, I meant to edit but realized I'd be late to church. Going out for Mother's Day so went to 430 today. : )

I do feel there are no easy answers, I don't think anyone should be trapped with an abusive spouse but I think the church is more helpful in that area now. We need to make more careful choices with our spouses and talk more, not text, really talk about values and what we want in life, not vacations we want to take or houses we want to live in. We lost something over the years, not everyone but many young are just lost and I think very unhappy.

I think parents have to do a much better job with their sons, not just teaching daughters how to act but their sons too. It's not manly to be macho and act tough. My gentle, soft spoken dad taught me more about love, honesty and how to treat others and taught my brother to always respect women, any woman. Some in my family thought "certain types" of women shouldn't be the same but you can't do that. You show others how to act, what some do isn't the issue. It's hard with peer pressure but not impossible. A young woman once told my male friend, "You became my friend because you saw me as a person, not a body" She never had that before.

Money with people in need is a tough one but promising a mom with a pregnancy help to have her not abort and not address how she should live and how she can have respect for herself and baby has to be part of it. Many single moms will tell me it's not easy, it's not fun and some work 2 jobs to make ends meet. Then they are judged for not being home more, if they work one job and take food stamps, they are judged for that. I hear (and correct) coworkers who make comments on families or individuals on medicaid. Stop judging, if you make 30,000 a year and have a kid, you can't pay high insurance costs. We judge a lot without knowing someone's situation. My friends work with the poor and homeless and see and hear more than most. We don't value lives not born or born and on hard times. We always will have poor and needy but Christ still wanted us to help them.

I do believe you can mandate murder but contraception, no. What individuals do in that regard is their conscience and for many religion doesn't enter into their decisions. One day at a time.

I do hope for my grandchildren (hopefully blessed in the future) and all of us, the world gets kinder, more loving and less judgemental. I pray not so much for laws to change, but hearts because we break laws every day. Grace had me see things differently over many years and I'm not sure how it works, some get it praying, some get it who think they are atheist. God knows how and why and we can only hope they respond to it.

I hope everyone has a blessed Sunday and week ahead. Happy Mom's day to all mom's

 

[tinytherese]

On Mother's Day, activists are going to protest overturning Roe v. Wade by interrupting Catholic Masses. Part of me isn't surprised.

https://aleteia.org/2022/05/07/abortion-activists-plan-to-interrupt-catholic-masses-on-sunday/

[tinytherese]

Their website mentions how they assist mothers with issues like education and finding housing.

https://sistersoflife.org/what-we-do/pregnancy-help/abortion-alternatives/

 

Also, they work with volunteers such as lawyers, medical professionals, and mentors for fathers.

https://sistersoflife.org/what-we-do/serve-with-us/

 

I used to volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center which offered parenting classes. There are others in the pro-life movement who help in other such ways. I highly recommend the book "Real Choices: Listening to Women, Looking for Alternatives to Abortion" by Frederica Mathewes-Green.

https://www.amazon.com/Real-Choices-Listening-Alternatives-Abortion/dp/1482746182/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3AZWI5D5OXXEP&keywords=real+choices+frederica&qid=1651970003&s=books&sprefix=real+choices%2Cstripbooks%2C139&sr=1-1

 

On thing a lot of people don't know is that even if a child is conceived in rape, it can be a struggle to terminate the rapist's parental rights.

https://www.savethe1.com/2019/10/02/terminatingparentalrightsofrapists/

Edited May 8, 2022 by tinytherese

[debc]

Sisters of Life give wonderful retreats too. Just wish there were more of them across the US but glad they exist. I try to support them when I can.

Yes, the rapists "law" I thought was a bad Law and Order episode once but sadly true in some areas. Glad not mine but Minnesota has no provision at all. Some need a conviction etc. An ugly scenario which can unfortunately get worse no matter what she decides to do. 

[little2add]

 

 

[little2add]

I don’t wanna sound like a pessimist but I’ll believe it when I see it.  

One can still hope that life in the womb will be recognized for what it is.  A person 

[debc]

This is partly why I was somewhat prochoice when young. If the church doesn't recognize the baby in womb as having a soul, unless it takes a breath outside of the womb, if it dies being born, if it dies 8 months along, I saw women leaving the hospital alone, no service, no funeral, nothing. I felt it was very hypocritical and hurt many women and families along the way. I knew some who fought it, but the priests many times unless a bit rebellious, went by the rules there. I never would have left my babies at the hospital but the hundreds and thousands really of stories I've read online from older Catholics and not so old of being very unsupported in their grief and with their miscarriage. I am so glad it is getting better but I don't know if all over. I feel women are much more supported now but never understood how something so important and precious was just not recognized as a person.

https://uscatholic.org/articles/201610/the-quiet-grief-of-miscarriage/

Edited May 8, 2022 by debc