Political discourse in (A)merica

[fides' Jack]

1 hour ago, Anastasia13 said:

1. There is scientific research that shows that masks provide protection from giving infections to others. It depends on things like the kinds of masks-a lot of the masks people have been wearing offer very little protection, but n95s and similar once’s offer a lot. I live with a woman who has had several rounds of chemo and a cold could harm her. I think it’s the living thing to do to separate from her if I might have a risk and give her the choice of what risk she takes, this as a Christian I do that.

2. I just can’t see how it can be blanketly sinful. Maybe in some circumstances, but not all.

3-a. I prefer to use a better fiddler than a basic face mask-fun fact, it helps protect this temple of the Holy Spirit from allergies and needing antihistamines.

3-b. I can disagree with the government, write my representatives, support people marching against requirements of wearing masks and still exercise my right to wear one.

3-b-2. Fun fact: the government has better facial recognition against my skin tone, and I can exercise my right to protect part of my privacy in some small way.

4. Not everyone everywear needs ti always wear a mask, but if children rely on strangers in the grocery store to learn how to talk and communicate, we have bigger issues in their lives to worry about than the people in the store wearing masks.

5. As a chronic asthmatic who has had several bouts of pneumonia in her life while living in worse air quality, I can say from experience that I recovered better from those despite needing stronger medications for those. It’s the long lasting and insidious effects of Covid that make it bad. Sorry for my late reply-I am still recovering from several months ago, unlike literally every other infection I have had in my life, but at least I didn’t take narcotics, so having my life impacted on a daily or almost daily basis at this point is relatively minor, right?

2 cont: I don’t consider it a sin when a doctor wears a mask during surgery-I think it is the living thing to do. It’s not a normal circumstance though, but a pandemic isn’t a normal circumstance either.

1.  I agree that different masks have different efficacies.  Cloth masks have been shown to be just about completely meaningless, and those have been pushed the most.  There are certainly cases when the n95s have use.  In fact, they were designed for tuberculosis cases, and I believe they are effective then - when they are properly fitted (which is a very long process and specific to the individual).  Against other viruses, they are more effective than cloth masks, but I can't agree that their effectiveness could be classified as "a lot".  Furthermore, their effectiveness drops to very little the moment you touch them with your fingers.  They are meant to be thrown away after each use, and not used all day.  But even Fauci has admitted that the cloth masks basically do nothing.

2.  I just can’t see how it can be blanketly sinful. Maybe in some circumstances, but not all.  I agree, I said most cases, not all.  See #1 above for a prime example.

3-a.  That's interesting, and since allergies are often caused by particles that are HUGE compared to viruses, that makes a lot of sense.

3-b.  I would never try to enforce you by law to wear one, or not to wear one.

3-b-2.  I had the exact same thought for a long time.  Not-so-fun fact that I discovered a month or so ago: there are videos online of people having multiple masks on at the same time as hoodies where only the forehead and eyes are visible and technology can still figure out who they are, at least in China.  Facial recognition has become insanely accurate...

4.  Certainly that's true.  Sadly though, kids in the US are still being forced to wear masks all day long, during school, and even in preschool.  And they're certainly learning human skills in preschool.  And that is child abuse, in my opinion.  But honestly, so is sending your kid to preschool without a sufficient reason.

5.  I wouldn't say that - compared to other people you might consider it minor.  But that's actually you being selfless and charitable.  Still, I don't see how it's selfless to wear a mask, either.  Science says that it doesn't prevent transmission, or if it does the effect is extremely limited, and causes other issues alongside.

 

I think we agree much more than disagree.  Where we do disagree, I think, is on the science.  The science the media portrays at the behest of Dr. Fauci has been proven false.  I don't believe that masks are effective most of the time.  There are legitimate times to use face masks (never really cloth masks, except maybe against allergies or dust, but different types of masks have different uses).

Statistically speaking, those areas that did not enforce mask wearing had the same or fewer cases on average than the areas that did enforce it.  This was shown to be the case globally.

1 hour ago, Anastasia13 said:

Yes oppose the forcing of masks, but in practice let it be a choice and use discretion on when to mask or not with compassion.

Agreed.  And let it be the case that nobody is told they are uncharitable or selfish (or worse) for not wearing it.

[Anastasia13]

I think the story of do masks help prevent covid is more complicated than the initial global numbers show. There are behavioral differences that are likely not taken into account. Perhaps people who wear masks are more likely to take risks or more more likely to be vaccinated and then overconfident in their immunity. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0196655320310439

The latest news in long covid is that it is more likely from the milder cases than from the hospital cases. I know people who have struggled with work for months despite surviving a relatively mild case. I wonder if the overconfidence that people have is one of the bigger threats from more mild covid.

Overall, we probably do agree on a lot, though I don't give much credence to Fauci without peer review (politics should never dictate science) or to cloth masks no matter how much people wear them (at least with a surgical mask underneath there is a better filtration combined with the seal of the fabric holding the edges down).

[Nihil Obstat]

On 3/24/2022 at 4:45 PM, fides' Jack said:

Agreed.  And let it be the case that nobody is told they are uncharitable or selfish (or worse) for not wearing it.

Naturally. Peace and understanding for the anti-mask crowd, but if a parent has their child wear a mask or go to school they are literally committing child abuse.

My brother in Christ, this is not caritas.

[fides' Jack]

10 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Naturally. Peace and understanding for the anti-mask crowd, but if a parent has their child wear a mask or go to school they are literally committing child abuse.

My brother in Christ, this is not caritas.

I had considered that specific point when I typed those words.  And you calling me out on that has made me consider it again.

Both sides are not equal.  The constant wearing of face masks is not natural.

Nevertheless, that doesn't make you wrong about the way I have argued my side.  Perhaps you are right.

[fides' Jack]

Still thinking about this, because I've been second-guessing myself on, at the very least, my approach to certain topics all Lent (as well as off and on for many months before that).

There is no caritas without veritas.

11 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Naturally. Peace and understanding for the anti-mask crowd, but if a parent has their child wear a mask or go to school they are literally committing child abuse.

My brother in Christ, this is not caritas.

"Peace and understanding for the anti-abortion crowd, but if a parent kills their child in their womb they are literally committing child abuse (and murder)."

Yes, absolutely, and in this case it's not a double-standard, so the logic clearly applies to some topics.

So it really depends on the veritas.  What is the truth?  

We have to pick a side.

[Nihil Obstat]

2 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

What is the truth?  

I like to reflect on what happened to Pilate after asked this.

[Nihil Obstat]

Serves me right for posting while I was working with colleagues. That should have been either "what happened to Pilate after HE asked this" OR "what happened AFTER Pilate asked this." Instead, it is both.