Political discourse in (A)merica

[Nihil Obstat]

I did not say that I agree with all of the government's actions. I simply do not think it is the end of the world as we know it. I think it is a bit of mundane political drama that will amount to little more than partisan point-scoring.

[KnightofChrist]

1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I did not say that I agree with all of the government's actions. I simply do not think it is the end of the world as we know it. I think it is a bit of mundane political drama that will amount to little more than partisan point-scoring.

Nor I don't think it the end of the world. But the actions of Trudeau's government are unjust.

 

The suspension of civil liberties and due process is not mundane political drama. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by KnightofChrist
Sp

[Nihil Obstat]

I think there is clearly some amount of overreach in terms of how the Emergencies Act is being employed. Is this a "collapse of the Western liberal empire into violence and apocalypse" like our forum friend Jack here believes? Absolutely not, and Catholic social teaching does not countenance that. The violations will be dealt with through the courts and through Parliament and the legislatures. Adequately, maybe, maybe not. Such is life in a liberal democracy.

Whether we prefer it or not, this is the political authority in our current society, the one that God has allowed for us, and our obligations as Catholics and political beings entail a proper recognition of this order, even as we work to bring about a greater exercise of Justice and the common good. 

To be frank, I do not see any better articulation of the common good coming from any serious players right now. The Canadian conservatives are morally compromised and spineless. American conservatives are caught between a vulgar populism and rank avarice. The progressives are hopelessly lost in a really frightening confluence of contempt for life and wholesale embrace of ultra-woke purity spiralling. There are no other serious players at this point. We can only try to catch the common good in bits and pieces right now, tiny victories of common life, support for the family, basic decency and respect. Someday we may have the chance for more substantive victories. For now we wait and stay above the fray.

[Nihil Obstat]

@KnightofChrist

 

CNN: Trudeau revokes Emergencies Act, saying existing laws are enough to deal with protesters.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/23/americas/canada-trudeau-revokes-emergencies-act/index.html

 

So, federal overreach? Maybe. The case has been made and will continue to be made. Were some people's rights violated unjustly? Perhaps. I am happy to criticize Trudeau any time he deserves it.

But ultimately, the Act was used as intended, and it was not the first step into a slippery store leading to a Canadian Reich. This is exactly why I try to take a moderate view on current events. All the people hyperventilating about how the Act was never going to be revoked and Trudeau was going to hold onto emergency powers and turn Canada into a progressivist police state just kind of look unhinged and alarmist now.

[Anastasia13]

On 2/18/2022 at 2:43 PM, little2add said:

There is not much real discourse around me in America. I support the right of people to not wear masks, but it kills me to think that my brothers and sisters are so caught up in not having cloth on their face that they would risk my immunocomprimosed family members by forcing all of us to stay home and spend money on deliveries including the retired in my family to keep them safer just so those people can avoid wearing a mask, and this is the love of Christ???

Edited February 28, 2022 by Anastasia13
How do I delete the quote?

[Anastasia13]

15 minutes ago, Anastasia13 said:

There is not much real discourse around me in America. I support the right of people to not wear masks, but it kills me to think that my brothers and sisters are so caught up in not having cloth on their face that they would risk my immunocomprimosed family members by forcing all of us to stay home and spend money on deliveries including the retired in my family to keep them safer just so those people can avoid wearing a mask, and this is the love of Christ???

This should be “family members, forcing all of us…”, but by forcing all of us.

[fides' Jack]

On 2/20/2022 at 10:40 PM, Nihil Obstat said:

Is this a "collapse of the Western liberal empire into violence and apocalypse" like our forum friend Jack here believes?

It's the beginning of it, but I don't think you're going to waste your time arguing that point.

 

1 hour ago, Anastasia13 said:

There is not much real discourse around me in America. I support the right of people to not wear masks, but it kills me to think that my brothers and sisters are so caught up in not having cloth on their face that they would risk my immunocomprimosed family members by forcing all of us to stay home and spend money on deliveries including the retired in my family to keep them safer just so those people can avoid wearing a mask, and this is the love of Christ???

1.  Because it is NOT risking your immunocompromised family members - that has been proven to be a lie, but a lie most people now believe.  It is not safer to wear a face mask as a response to covid.  It does virtually nothing, except promote a lie.

2.  I'm not getting caught up over putting cloth on my face.  I do that every time I wipe my face with a napkin.  I refuse to wear a face mask, in most circumstances, because I believe it to be sinful to do so.

3.  By wearing a face mask, which does nothing to prevent viruses from getting around, you're telling the government that it's OK for them to violate the constitution (if you're in the US), or to promote tyranny, in general.  

4.  If you make children wear face masks, you're committing child abuse.  And if you needlessly wear a face mask when dealing with small children who are learning how to talk, you're committing child abuse.

5.  I'm not forcing you to do anything.  If you're so afraid of a relatively minor disease that you don't want to go to the store, that's your prerogative.  But you can't force me to stay home because of your fear.

Yes, to not wear a face mask is to show forth God's goodness and the love of Christ.  But most people refuse to see the truth, so they won't understand that.

Edited February 28, 2022 by fides' Jack

[fides' Jack]

On 2/20/2022 at 10:40 PM, Nihil Obstat said:

Is this a "collapse of the Western liberal empire into violence and apocalypse" like our forum friend Jack here believes?

I've been thinking about this and just wondering - what would it take for you to believe that we are witnessing the apocalypse?  What would have to transpire or be present first?

Edited February 28, 2022 by fides' Jack

[Nihil Obstat]

45 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

I've been thinking about this and just wondering - what would it take for you to believe that we are witnessing the apocalypse?  What would have to transpire or be present first?

I would defer to our old friend Dr. Desmond Birch. My understanding is that there are a variety of fairly unambiguous signs which will precede the actual beginning of the eschatological periods. If I recall correctly, and it has admittedly been a while since I read his book, we would expect to see mass conversions, global war, multiple civil wars, the emergence of a Catholic leader who unifies the world under his authority, a pope who flees Rome and is murdered, a saintly pope who is elected after him, etc. In some cases specific events and places are spoken about in the prophecies. For example, civil wars in Italy, France, and England. A great amount of Islamic violence, another Russian invasion of Europe (certainly an interesting thought right now), a great and ultimately victorious military confrontation in western Europe, and then those three days of darkness that we like to LARP about.

In his book, Dr. Birch outlines the common threads of the corpus of private Catholic prophesies on the end times, and how they are supported by Revelation. The very basic hypothesis is that, while there is a vast body of approved private prophecy, there is remarkable commonalities across varying times and cultures, and when we gather these commonalities together we can advance a reasonably prudent hypothesis about how things may very well play out. Of course none of that would be de fide, but it's in my opinion an eminently reasonable and prudent way to approach the topic.

Dr. Birch identifies the periods of the Minor Chastisement (which may or may not be averted depending upon the holiness of the people), the Age of Peace (which could be a period of hundreds or even a thousand years), the Major Chastisement (which signals the appearance of the literal Antichrist, as well as the bodily return of Enoch and Elias to earth), then, finally, the actual Four Last Things, over a relatively short but not infinitesimal period of time.

[fides' Jack]

It's interesting that he places the Age of Peace before the Major Chastisement.  I suppose the other major interpretation does the same, but often proponents of that view hold that we are already in the Age of Peace, and have been since the time of Christ or relatively shortly afterward.

I currently believe that the Age of Peace will follow the Major Chastisement and rise and fall of the Antichrist. 

I'm not 100% convinced of any interpretation still (nor can I be).  But the longer things play out, the more convinced I am.  It's interesting and exciting to see things falling into place.  Those things you mentioned are, I think, tied to the years during the reign of the Antichrist, or immediately preceding them, likely within the 3.5 years before the Antichrist assumes power.  I think we're just on the cusp of that all starting.  If that's true, you'll get your signs soon.

[Nihil Obstat]

According to Dr. Birch's interpretation, there is a short peace after the major chastisement, but before the Last Things. I believe he describes it as "long enough for things to go back to normal", but a relatively short time. My interpretation of that would be as little as a couple weeks, as long as a few years, but less than a generation.

With all the events he lists as occurring during the minor chastisement, I do not believe we are anywhere near the major chastisement. And I see scant hope at this point in time that the minor chastisement can be avoided.

[little2add]

Isn't it just a little odd that the National guard has been called up for the president’s State of the Union address, today and fencing around the U.S. Capitol is back up or is in just me?

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by little2add

[little2add]

 

 

[Anastasia13]

On 2/28/2022 at 12:15 PM, fides' Jack said:

It's the beginning of it, but I don't think you're going to waste your time arguing that point.

 

1.  Because it is NOT risking your immunocompromised family members - that has been proven to be a lie, but a lie most people now believe.  It is not safer to wear a face mask as a response to covid.  It does virtually nothing, except promote a lie.

2.  I'm not getting caught up over putting cloth on my face.  I do that every time I wipe my face with a napkin.  I refuse to wear a face mask, in most circumstances, because I believe it to be sinful to do so.

3.  By wearing a face mask, which does nothing to prevent viruses from getting around, you're telling the government that it's OK for them to violate the constitution (if you're in the US), or to promote tyranny, in general.  

4.  If you make children wear face masks, you're committing child abuse.  And if you needlessly wear a face mask when dealing with small children who are learning how to talk, you're committing child abuse.

5.  I'm not forcing you to do anything.  If you're so afraid of a relatively minor disease that you don't want to go to the store, that's your prerogative.  But you can't force me to stay home because of your fear.

Yes, to not wear a face mask is to show forth God's goodness and the love of Christ.  But most people refuse to see the truth, so they won't understand that.

1. There is scientific research that shows that masks provide protection from giving infections to others. It depends on things like the kinds of masks-a lot of the masks people have been wearing offer very little protection, but n95s and similar once’s offer a lot. I live with a woman who has had several rounds of chemo and a cold could harm her. I think it’s the living thing to do to separate from her if I might have a risk and give her the choice of what risk she takes, this as a Christian I do that.

2. I just can’t see how it can be blanketly sinful. Maybe in some circumstances, but not all.

3-a. I prefer to use a better fiddler than a basic face mask-fun fact, it helps protect this temple of the Holy Spirit from allergies and needing antihistamines.

3-b. I can disagree with the government, write my representatives, support people marching against requirements of wearing masks and still exercise my right to wear one.

3-b-2. Fun fact: the government has better facial recognition against my skin tone, and I can exercise my right to protect part of my privacy in some small way.

4. Not everyone everywear needs ti always wear a mask, but if children rely on strangers in the grocery store to learn how to talk and communicate, we have bigger issues in their lives to worry about than the people in the store wearing masks.

5. As a chronic asthmatic who has had several bouts of pneumonia in her life while living in worse air quality, I can say from experience that I recovered better from those despite needing stronger medications for those. It’s the long lasting and insidious effects of Covid that make it bad. Sorry for my late reply-I am still recovering from several months ago, unlike literally every other infection I have had in my life, but at least I didn’t take narcotics, so having my life impacted on a daily or almost daily basis at this point is relatively minor, right?

2 cont: I don’t consider it a sin when a doctor wears a mask during surgery-I think it is the living thing to do. It’s not a normal circumstance though, but a pandemic isn’t a normal circumstance either.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Anastasia13

[Anastasia13]

I’m not trying to go against people who are against being forced to wear a mask-please do support your right to it being a choice, but around me and what I hear normally is people who oppose wearing it because they oppose government forcing it and not rather opposing government forcing it while exercising compassion to those with medical things going on that aren’t seen or speaking up for those affected by long Covid which from survivors I know is underrecognized in the medical community much less society at large. Yes oppose the forcing of masks, but in practice let it be a choice and use discretion on when to mask or not with compassion. We let blanket views of this force people apart and politicize personal practices while politicians preach their medical take and doctors struggle to treat patients. If you disagree with me, then I truly hope your community is different than mine. *prayer*