Would a Basic Minimum Income dramatically reduce abortions?

[fides' Jack]

On 2/14/2022 at 4:29 PM, Peace said:

It is a debt that the wealthy owe to the poor.

That's a serious misreading of the catechism.

On 2/14/2022 at 11:34 AM, Peace said:

That means that if there are poor people who cannot provide basic goods for themselves to live, those who have great wealth steal from them by not giving to them out of their excess. Since the wealthy owe the poor out of their excess as a debt of justice, the State, being a primary instrument of justice, has the power to redistribute wealth from the wealthy to the poor.

Nonsense.

Edited February 17, 2022 by fides' Jack

[Peace]

3 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

That's a serious misreading of the catechism.

Nonsense.

Of course, because nobody gets to tell you what to do with your money, no?

A debt is owed. Sorry to break the bad news to you.

And that concept I taught by numerous church fathers and authorities that you can reference here:

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/07/stealing-from-poor.html?m=1

St. Basil: “Are not thou then a robber, for counting as thine own what thou hast receivest to distribute? It is the bread of the famished which thou receivest, the garment of the naked which thou hoardest in they chest, the shoe of the barefooted which rots in they possessions, the money of the pennyless which thou hast buried in the earth. Wherefore then dost thou injure so many to whom thou mightiest be a benefactor.”

Now if you don’t like that, you’ll have to find a new religion.

[fides' Jack]

15 hours ago, Peace said:

Now if you don’t like that, you’ll have to find a new religion.

No, I absolutely like the quote from St. Basil.  Finally you're quoting people who actually contributed to Church tradition and not someone from the last 50 years who doesn't know what he's talking about.

And you've failed to understand what they're actually saying.  You've misapplied it to try to fit your own socialist narrative.  In that way, you're dead wrong.

Edited February 18, 2022 by fides' Jack

[Peace]

35 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

No, I absolutely like the quote from St. Basil. 

No, you do not.

35 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Finally you're quoting people who actually contributed to Church tradition and not someone from the last 50 years who doesn't know what he's talking about.

I could not care less who you think I should quote.

35 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

And you've failed to understand what they're actually saying.  You've misapplied it to try to fit your own socialist narrative.  In that way, you're dead wrong.

No, it is you who refuses to believe what the Church teaches, because you are a right-wing ideologue who puts his  politics before his faith.

Have a nice day. 

[fides' Jack]

26 minutes ago, Peace said:

No, you do not.

I could not care less who you think I should quote.

No, it is you who refuses to believe what the Church teaches, because you are a right-wing ideologue who puts his  politics before his faith.

Have a nice day. 

OK, Cathy:

Why don't you tell me about the lobster!

Or you can just tell me some more what I believe in, and what my intentions are.

[fides' Jack]

On 2/13/2022 at 9:47 PM, Nihil Obstat said:

As I said, happy to share. To debate, not so much. At the moment I am studying full time for my second degree, working 25 hours a week, and raising my two children. That is not one of those measuring contests the internet likes; just letting you know I am at my own limit. 2010 Nihil would have been happy to debate all day every day for weeks on end.

I am still slowly recovering from my reflexive distrust of everything post-1960. I try to keep it at a polite raised eyebrow these days. But I will always gravitate to Leo because of his effect on my life. Even gave my son Leo as a middle name in his honour.

Clearly you are a better man than I.

Good luck on your degree!

[Peace]

52 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Or you can just tell me some more what I believe in, and what my intentions are.

Oh I'll be more than happy to, the next time you insinuate that I am a socialist. 

Have a nice day. 

[little2add]

On 12/30/2021 at 8:08 AM, Dennis Tate said:

Would a Basic Minimum Income dramatically reduce abortions?"

I don’t think  it works that way

 

[Vernon]

Quote

That means that if there are poor people who cannot provide basic goods for themselves to live, those who have great wealth steal from them by not giving to them out of their excess. Since the wealthy owe the poor out of their excess as a debt of justice, the State, being a primary instrument of justice, has the power to redistribute wealth from the wealthy to the poor.

St. Basil was preaching to the rich and not to encourage bureaucrats to force them to pay up. Christian giving is to be voluntary.

Since the state is the instrument of justice and since adultery is an injustice, then the state should pass and enforce laws against adultery. Likewise for fornication. 

[fides' Jack]

43 minutes ago, Vernon said:

Since the state is the instrument of justice and since adultery is an injustice, then the state should pass and enforce laws against adultery. Likewise for fornication. 

Absolutely.  I think most states do have laws against adultery still.  They are just not enforced.

[ArciMoto]

On 12/30/2021 at 5:08 AM, Dennis Tate said:

I have written this up in a way that could increase cooperation between many in the pro-life movement with those in the political left who believe a BMI is the only way to respond to Artificial Intelligence and robotics taking over more and more in the world economy!

 

FWIW,... a few years ago had an invite to a breakfast meeting where I actually asked Jason Furmn (Obama's chair of economic advisors) about his thoughts on handing out a "basic minimum income" 

 

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/administration/eop/cea/about/members

 

basically he told me he doesn't think BMI is a good idea (because this country could not afford it)

 

I'm not an economist BUT I do find the topic interesting AND as I see things BMI only creates inflation and accelerated the issue of "tiffins paradox"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma

 

 

 

 

 

[Dennis Tate]

11 hours ago, little2add said:

I don’t think  it works that way

 

It would not work that way in all cases that lead to an abortion....

but it would certainly play a significant role in at least thirty percent of abortions, (perhaps in more than fifty percent of cases that lead to an abortion).

Reasons U.S. Women Have Abortions: Quantitative and Qualitative PerspectivesLawrence B. FinerLori F. Frohwirth,Guttmacher InstituteLindsay A. DauphineeSusheela Singh,Guttmacher InstituteAnn M. Moore,Guttmacher Institute

 

Quote

 

RESULTS

The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%). Nearly four in 10 women said they had completed their childbearing, and almost one-third were not ready to have a child. Fewer than 1% said their parents' or partners' desire for them to have an abortion was the most important reason. Younger women often reported that they were unprepared for the transition to motherhood, while older women regularly cited their responsibility to dependents.

CONCLUSIONS

The decision to have an abortion is typically motivated by multiple, diverse and interrelated reasons. The themes of responsibility to others and resource limitations, such as financial constraints and lack of partner support, recurred throughout the study.

 

 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, ArciMoto said:

 

FWIW,... a few years ago had an invite to a breakfast meeting where I actually asked Jason Furmn (Obama's chair of economic advisors) about his thoughts on handing out a "basic minimum income" 

 

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/administration/eop/cea/about/members

 

basically he told me he doesn't think BMI is a good idea (because this country could not afford it)

 

I'm not an economist BUT I do find the topic interesting AND as I see things BMI only creates inflation and accelerated the issue of "tiffins paradox"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma

 

 

 

 

 

But... if a B.M.I. was financed in the manner accomplished by President Lincoln and attempted by JFK then a BMI financed in this manner could actually lead to the paying off of the national debt of the USA...... because the national debt of the USA is largely a practical joke played on three hundred and thirty million Americans..... but some very bright people who know how to sell really bad ideas on economics.

 

https://www.michaeljournal.org/articles/politics/item/abraham-lincoln-and-john-f-kennedy

Quote

 

During the Civil War (1861-1865), President Lincoln needed money to finance the War from the North. The Bankers were going to charge him 24% to 36% interest. Lincoln was horrified and went away greatly distressed, for he was a man of principle and would not think of plunging his beloved country into a debt that the country would find impossible to pay back.

Eventually President Lincoln was advised to get Congress to pass a law authorizing the printing of full legal tender Treasury notes to pay for the War effort. Lincoln recognized the great benefits of this issue. At one point he wrote:

“... (we) gave the people of this Republic the greatest blessing they have ever had – their own paper money to pay their own debts...”

The Treasury notes were printed with green ink on the back, so the people called them “Greenbacks”.

Lincoln printed 400 million dollars worth of Greenbacks (the exact amount being $449,338,902), money that he delegated to be created, a debt-free and interest-free money to finance the War. It served as legal tender for all debts, public and private. He printed it, paid it to the soldiers, to the U.S. Civil Service employees, and bought supplies for war.

In 1972, the United States Treasury Department was asked to compute the amount of interest that would have been paid if that 400 million dollars would have been borrowed at interest instead of being issued by Abraham Lincoln. They did some computations, and a few weeks later, the United States Treasury Department said the United States Government saved 4 billion dollars in interest because Lincoln had created his own money. So you can about imagine how much the Government has paid and how much we owe solely on the basis of interest." (Melvin Sickler,Lincoln, Kennedy)

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Dennis Tate
grammar

[fides' Jack]

4 minutes ago, Dennis Tate said:

It would not work that way in all cases that lead to an abortion....

but it would certainly play a significant role in at least thirty percent of abortions, (perhaps in more than fifty percent of cases that lead to an abortion).

I agree it would play a significant role.  It would encourage more abortions.

[Dennis Tate]

Just now, fides' Jack said:

I agree it would play a significant role.  It would encourage more abortions.

If eighty percent of young people who received their B.M.I. invested in drinking more alcohol and smoking more marijuana.... then your prediction could turn out to be true?????  But I really am expecting a positive spiritual awakening to happen in all the world over the coming years and decades.  

[Peace]

1 hour ago, Vernon said:

St. Basil was preaching to the rich and not to encourage bureaucrats to force them to pay up. Christian giving is to be voluntary.

No, the Church has clearly taught that the imposition of taxes is proper, and not only on the rich.

What do you think taxes are? It is politicians forcing you to pay up. It is them taking your money and giving it to someone else, or spending it on public infrastructure used by all (including those who haven’t paid any taxes).

1 hour ago, Vernon said:

Since the state is the instrument of justice and since adultery is an injustice, then the state should pass and enforce laws against adultery. Likewise for fornication. 

Do you think that people have a right to sin? Are you elevating libertarian ideas of freedom above the Catholic faith?

Yes, the state should enforce laws against those things (as it has in the past), unless the principle of tolerance is applicable.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Peace