Wealth and the Catholic teachings

[Didacus]

54 minutes ago, Peace said:

But the "eye of the needle" was actually a gate in Jerusalem that was roughly six feet wide, you see.  What our Lord was saying here is that it is actually quite easy for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, as long as he doesn't love the money.

True the eye of the needle was 6ft wide, but to pass a camel through was still an ordeal in itself, although commonly done.

[Credo in Deum]

4 hours ago, little2add said:

 it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

From the Catena Aurea: St: Matthew 
 

 Gloss., ap. Anselm: It is explained otherwise; That at Jerusalem there was a certain gate, called, The needle’s eye, through which a camel could not pass, but on its bended knees, and after its burden had been taken off; and so the rich should not be able to pass along the narrow way that leads to life, till he had put off the burden of sin, and of riches, that is, ceasing to love them.

 

The Apostles understood Christ here is talking about our attachment/love of earthly things because after He says this they say “Who then can be saved”? Why did they ask this?  It’s because they understood that Christ was talking about, earthly attachments which applied not only to those who had wealth but to the poor who chased wealth because they loved it.

As they Haydock Commentary states for Matthew, Chapter 19.

Ver. 25.  They wondered very much.  The apostles wondered how any person could be saved, not because all were rich, but because the poor were also included, who had their hearts and affections fixed on riches.  S. Aug. and Nicholas de Lyra.

 

Plus let’s not forget Christs words prior to his example of the camel and needle’s eye:

 

Matthew 19:23 (D-R): Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 
 

Note the word hardly doesn’t mean never.  With God it is possible, it’s just not probable because our fallen nature makes us prone to sin.  If you are asking to be rich you need to likewise ask for the grace to be detached from riches in order to use them correctly for the glory of God.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Credo in Deum

[Credo in Deum]

What’s fantastic about this Gospel message is it’s so relevant for our times (duh, it’s Truth which is timeless), especially in wealthy countries where we have greed and corruption from the majority of wealthy citizens and then envy from the majority of the poorer citizens.

If we view wealth as a Cross, which it is, those who are wealthy would carry it for Christ, while those of us who are not wealthy would not seek out such a Cross nor would we envy those who have to carry it.

I pity the rich because I know myself and the attachment I have for the stuff I already possess and how I’m prone to being attached to the stuff I don’t even have but want.  I couldn’t imagine the absolute death to self needed in order to be detached from extreme wealth.  
 

This is why I pray to not be envious of the rich. It’s why I don’t care what they make or how much they spend.  I don’t want their Cross.  This is something priests need to preach in order to calm down the socialist and communist supporters who are heavily envious of those with wealth. 
 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Credo in Deum

[little2add]

3 hours ago, Peace said:

But the "eye of the needle" was actually a gate in Jerusalem that was roughly six feet wide, you see.  What our Lord was saying here is that it is actually quite easy for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, as long as he doesn't love the money.

Didn’t know that , interesting 

[Peace]

5 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

Note the word hardly doesn’t mean never.

Just give up the money bro. Both you and I know that ain't gonna work!

5 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

From the Catena Aurea: St: Matthew 
 

 Gloss., ap. Anselm: It is explained otherwise; That at Jerusalem there was a certain gate, called, The needle’s eye, through which a camel could not pass, but on its bended knees, and after its burden had been taken off; and so the rich should not be able to pass along the narrow way that leads to life, till he had put off the burden of sin, and of riches, that is, ceasing to love them.

 

The Apostles understood Christ here is talking about our attachment/love of earthly things because after He says this they say “Who then can be saved”? Why did they ask this?  It’s because they understood that Christ was talking about, earthly attachments which applied not only to those who had wealth but to the poor who chased wealth because they loved it.

As they Haydock Commentary states for Matthew, Chapter 19.

Ver. 25.  They wondered very much.  The apostles wondered how any person could be saved, not because all were rich, but because the poor were also included, who had their hearts and affections fixed on riches.  S. Aug. and Nicholas de Lyra.

 

Plus let’s not forget Christs words prior to his example of the camel and needle’s eye:

 

Matthew 19:23 (D-R): Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 
 

Note the word hardly doesn’t mean never.  With God it is possible, it’s just not probable because our fallen nature makes us prone to sin.  If you are asking to be rich you need to likewise ask for the grace to be detached from riches in order to use them correctly for the glory of God.

Yeah I'm still fairly skeptical of this "gate".

3 hours ago, little2add said:

Didn’t know that , interesting 

That's the theory at least, but I don't exactly buy it.

[Credo in Deum]

1 minute ago, Peace said:

Just give up the money bro. Both you and I know that ain't gonna work!

Ha! I’ve never wanted to be rich; I’ve seen what it does to people.  My problem is I’m also not very good at being poor or poor in spirit. 
 

#Blessed&Stressed

[Credo in Deum]

20 hours ago, Peace said:

 

Yeah I'm still fairly skeptical of this "gate".

 

Well it would beg the question why would Christ use a camel and needle together unless it made sense to those whom he was teaching? 
 

Whether it’s a gate or not actually matters because if you say it’s not a gate but an actual needle then you’re claiming Christ said it’s impossible for a rich man to enter heaven, but Christ doesn’t say this in the preceding verse….so it seem Christ is giving an example not to illustrate how impossible it is for a rich man to enter heaven but for how improbable it is for a rich man to enter heaven.   This means the camel and the eye of the needle have some significance to each other. 

[Credo in Deum]

Furthermore the language Christ uses denotes improbability in the example not impossibility; “for it is easier for a camel” shows Him drawing the peoples minds to something they already understand as being extremely difficult but not impossible. 
 

It would be like me saying “it’s easier for a full size truck to find parking at Costco on a Saturday than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven.”

Edited December 22, 2021 by Credo in Deum

[Peace]

5 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

Well it would beg the question why would Christ use a camel and needle together unless it made sense to those whom he was teaching? 
 

Whether it’s a gate or not actually matters because if you say it’s not a gate but an actual needle then you’re claiming Christ said it’s impossible for a rich man to enter heaven, but Christ doesn’t say this in the preceding verse….so it seem Christ is giving an example not to illustrate how impossible it is for a rich man to enter heaven but for how improbable it is for a rich man to enter heaven.   This means the camel and the eye of the needle have some significance to each other. 

 

5 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

Furthermore the language Christ uses denotes improbability in the example not impossibility; “for it is easier for a camel” shows Him drawing the peoples minds to something they already understand as being extremely difficult but not impossible. 
 

It would be like me saying “it’s easier for a full size truck to find parking at Costco on a Saturday than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven.”

I don't interpret the verses to teach that it is impossible for a rich person to go to heaven.

Darn near impossible, yes. But impossible, no.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Peace

[Didacus]

Quick question...

What about collectibles? Old coins, comics, sports card and such?

Would it be a sin to own a coin that is worth $100,000???

[Dennis Tate]

On 12/10/2021 at 3:18 AM, Divine21 said:

This article is very thought provoking. 

 

https://wherepeteris.com/is-wealth-contrary-to-the-gospel-catholic-teaching-on-private-property/

 

I always knew that it’s a Christian obligation to help the poor. However, this article seems to imply that being wealthy is in and of itself wrong. The author states that wealth per se is contrary to the gospel. I am not sure how to make sense of this. It has made me revisit the Church’s teachings regarding social justice. I have considered the following questions:

 

As Christians, is it true that we have to give all our surplus money/goods to the poor? 

if someone is wealthy, is it sinful to live an extravagant lifestyle IF they donate a good amount of their money to charity (or would owning expensive cars, homes and boats itself be sinful considering that money could have been used on helping the poor 

Would collecting expensive goods such as cars, artwork or investing in multiple real estate be sinful? 

 

As a side note, I have also seen the quotes from some Saints who condemn wealth and owning any extra possessions. I always believed that denouncing non essential goods is meritorious but not obligatory.  Also, by no means am I saying that we have no duty to offer alms. I do believe that the more we own the more we are obligated to give. 

This is certainly an interesting question that I have thought about quite a bit over my sixty two years......

I believe that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is free to give each of us very, very, very, very dramatically different callings in life......

Isaiah chapter forty five hints at the raising up of what some refer to as The Christian Political Cyrus.  It would be essentially impossible for the most important Christian Political Cyrus who is led by the right hand by Jesus.....   and yet does not even really know Jesus hardly at all at least for an important part o their mission in life..... to be completely without wealth or influence.  

It is possible for a wealthy investor to decide to hire more and more and more and more Christians who are working for Jesus very effectively.... it would not be impossible for  wealthy film producer to do a reality film where orphans star as themselves... and the priests or nuns assisting the orphans become actors playing the role of the priests and nuns assisting the orphans...... and Jesus could be inspiring the film producers to choose the location and the stars for the reality film and several missions to very poor orphans could be financed through that possible type of reality film project?????

In spite of her flaws.... and we are all very flawed..... Oprah Winfrey has hired a huge number of people to produce the film and artistic projects that she considers to be worthy and beneficial for many people.  To dogmatically state that she needs to give everything away and be unable to pay her hundreds of employees goes against a principle in scripture hinted at in the Gospel of Mark........

.........  

 

"And he saith to them: Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy? But they held their peace."
[Mark 3:4]

 

If we combine this highly relevant question with the situation faced by the Machabee Jews just a couple of centuries before this question was asked.... we take a step or two or three toward giving at least some relevance to the idea of ethics..... to at least some degree being affected by the circumstances that we face........

 

I take this question to indicate that a Christian or Jew is free to take a job in the military or police and is also free to work on the Sabbath.... and perhaps even shoot or taser a criminal on the Sabbath.... .in defence of themselves or a fellow officer or in defence of an innocent bystander........   Thinking about this question back during the 1990's dramatically altered what types of jobs I felt free to take...... especially if I were to work some between Friday at sunset to Saturday at sunset........

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/45002.htm 

Quote

 

And forthwith they went out towards them, and made war against them on the sabbath day, [33] And they said to them: Do you still resist? come forth, and do according to the edict of king Antiochus, and you shall live. [34] And they said: We will not come forth, neither will we obey the king's edict, to profane the sabbath day. [35] And they made haste to give them battle. 

[36] But they answered them not, neither did they cast a stone at them, nor stopped up the secret places, [37] Saying: Let us all die in our innocency: and heaven and earth shall be witnesses for us, that you put us to death wrongfully. [38] So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons. [39] And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly. [40] And every man said to his neighbour: If we shall all do as our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives, and our justifications: they will now quickly root us out of the earth.

 

 

[ArciMoto]

On 12/10/2021 at 12:18 AM, Divine21 said:

This article is very thought provoking. 

 

https://wherepeteris.com/is-wealth-contrary-to-the-gospel-catholic-teaching-on-private-property/

 

I always knew that it’s a Christian obligation to help the poor. However, this article seems to imply that being wealthy is in and of itself wrong. The author states that wealth per se is contrary to the gospel. I am not sure how to make sense of this. It has made me revisit the Church’s teachings regarding social justice. I have considered the following questions:

 

As Christians, is it true that we have to give all our surplus money/goods to the poor? 

if someone is wealthy, is it sinful to live an extravagant lifestyle IF they donate a good amount of their money to charity (or would owning expensive cars, homes and boats itself be sinful considering that money could have been used on helping the poor 

Would collecting expensive goods such as cars, artwork or investing in multiple real estate be sinful? 

 

As a side note, I have also seen the quotes from some Saints who condemn wealth and owning any extra possessions. I always believed that denouncing non essential goods is meritorious but not obligatory.  Also, by no means am I saying that we have no duty to offer alms. I do believe that the more we own the more we are obligated to give. 

 

there is nothing wrong w/ "wealth" it self BUT it should not be an objective unto it self

the reason I have this view is because of my interpretation reading "The Parable of the Talents" (i.e. matthew 25:14-30)

IOW if one was blessed to have a talent such being interested and talent in being a carpenter (like Jesus) and there is a demand for your services to build custom furniture or are able to frame a house,... I see nothing wrong w/ making money using a talent of building stuff for sale (as long as one also remember the first commandment,... "thou shall not have other gods before me")

IOW be fair to your customer and treat them like you would want to be treated

OTOH if making money and collecting possessions is a primary goal,... I'd say this is akin to placing money before god,... IOW this is a direct contradiction of the first commandment

then we also have to consider "The Parable of the Rich Young Man" (i.e. Matthew 19:16-26),... here we see a guy w/ lots of stuff that he is unwilling to give up,... basically this is a case of loving money and material items more than god

sadly as I see things there are too many who worship the false god of money and material objects,...

 

 

and as I see things worship the false god of money and material objects is a temptation from the devil

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dennis Tate]

On 12/22/2021 at 1:48 PM, Credo in Deum said:

Well it would beg the question why would Christ use a camel and needle together unless it made sense to those whom he was teaching? 
 

Whether it’s a gate or not actually matters because if you say it’s not a gate but an actual needle then you’re claiming Christ said it’s impossible for a rich man to enter heaven, but Christ doesn’t say this in the preceding verse….so it seem Christ is giving an example not to illustrate how impossible it is for a rich man to enter heaven but for how improbable it is for a rich man to enter heaven.   This means the camel and the eye of the needle have some significance to each other. 

I have heard that the expression "eye of the needle" means the entrance to cities and towns that was rather low and that camels had to get down on their knees to go through those low gates.  The expression implies genuine humility.... without which nobody can enter heaven....... or dwell with God...... since what was learned from the fall of Covering Cherub Halel / Lucifer/ Satan.  


"For thus saith the High and the Eminent that inhabiteth eternity: and his name is Holy, who dwelleth in the high and holy place, and with a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite."
[Isaias (Isaiah) 57:15]

[Peace]

On 12/28/2021 at 8:01 PM, Dennis Tate said:

I have heard that the expression "eye of the needle" means the entrance to cities and towns that was rather low and that camels had to get down on their knees to go through those low gates.  The expression implies genuine humility.... without which nobody can enter heaven....... or dwell with God...... since what was learned from the fall of Covering Cherub Halel / Lucifer/ Satan.  


"For thus saith the High and the Eminent that inhabiteth eternity: and his name is Holy, who dwelleth in the high and holy place, and with a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite."
[Isaias (Isaiah) 57:15]

It appears to be something that Anslem dreamed up out of thin air. There doesn’t appear to be any historical basis for this supposed “low gate”. At least I have not seen one.

[Credo in Deum]

5 hours ago, Peace said:

It appears to be something that Anslem dreamed up out of thin air. There doesn’t appear to be any historical basis for this supposed “low gate”. At least I have not seen one.

Oral tradition as the source seems a little bit more likely.