Michigan shooters parents to be charged with manslaughter

[Vernon]

18 hours ago, Mercedes said:

Let us stay on topic here.  I'm 100% prolife Catholic and have been all my life.

You cite Switzerland as an example of a healthy gun culture.  Your article points out how the Swiss have a highly regulated system where children are taught all aspects of safe firearm use.  All males over 18 years have to go through national service, a process which helps identify unsuitable characteristics for gun ownership and use.  There's a lot of regulation.

The reality is that in Switzerland there is just as much mental illness, violent movie, video game and media accessibility etc all the things normally cited as reasons for school shooter events.  It's the focused regulation though that makes the difference.  A system of forced responsibility and accountability that ensures a safe society.  They have taken a path of not tolerating inevitable school massacres.

 

I'll try one more time to make the point you seem to be missing. Your attitude (in this thread and especially in another thread) has been what I see as condescending towards the US, as if you people are better and that we need you to step in and straighten us out. Yes we have problems, but no more than you do in your country. You just express your moral failings in different ways. In other words, you are obsessing over the spec in our eye while ignoring the board in your own.

[Winchester]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:20 PM, Mercedes said:

How would you characterise legal inaction against further gun crime after each massacre 'event' if not tolerance?  In the face of gun massacres, other nations have enacted stricter gun laws that have resulted in reduction of such crimes.

Violent crime has been declining globally since the 90s. It has declined in the US in spite of rising gun ownership. 

After 50 years of a brutal drug war, the various governments in the US can't manage to keep drugs out of their own prisons. An edict banning firearms would be to no effect. The state does not have that much control over society. You'll find when you research this properly that edicts don't reverse trends. The best thing you can do to combat gun violence is end the drug war. 

[Mercedes]

4 hours ago, Winchester said:

The only gun crime that's tolerated in the US is government sponsored gun crime. Duncan Lemp was murdered by government terrorists and none of them were charged with murder. Daniel Shaver was murdered, and his murderers are still free.
 

That's extremist fringe talk.  If it came down to whose authority we'd rather submit to, I'd rather a democratically elected rabble than wacky fringe ideologues.

Quote

All other gun crime is treated like a crime. In fact, self defense by commoners (like Kyle Rittenhouse or Marvin Guy, who shot at terrorists invading his home and has been held by the terrorist organization for 7 years without trial) is treated like a crime by the state. It's not tolerated.

Even though I think it's insane to keep tolerating those crimes, it's downright demonic to tolerate the shooting up of children in classrooms or playgrounds and yet nothing radical has been done to mitigate it.  In fact I predict and I'll be glad to be wrong, that there'll be a spate of them which seems to happen when one happens.

4 hours ago, Vernon said:

I'll try one more time to make the point you seem to be missing. Your attitude (in this thread and especially in another thread) has been what I see as condescending towards the US, as if you people are better and that we need you to step in and straighten us out. Yes we have problems, but no more than you do in your country. You just express your moral failings in different ways. In other words, you are obsessing over the spec in our eye while ignoring the board in your own.

I'm not the judgemental one here.

[little2add]

 human toll

There were 39,707 deaths from firearms in the U.S. in 2019. Sixty percent of deaths from firearms in the U.S. are suicides.

 More than half ( 23,941) died by firearm suicide.

According to data from CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics there were an estimated 93,331 drug overdose deaths in the United States during 2020, an increase of 29.4% from the 72,151 deaths predicted in 2019.

so roughly 16,000 people died unintentionally, violently by guns and 93, 331 by drug overdose.  

Compared to drug overdose deaths, gun violence is insignificant.  Compared to abortion deaths ( 630,000 in the US, 2019 ) both statistics are insignificant…

 

 

 

[dominicansoul]

I do believe the parents should be held to some responsibility for what their son has done... 

[Vernon]

Whatever problems we have with gun violence, the solution is not to take guns away from good law-abiding citizens.

[Winchester]

On 12/6/2021 at 4:41 AM, Mercedes said:

That's extremist fringe talk.  If it came down to whose authority we'd rather submit to, I'd rather a democratically elected rabble than wacky fringe ideologues.

Even though I think it's insane to keep tolerating those crimes, it's downright demonic to tolerate the shooting up of children in classrooms or playgrounds and yet nothing radical has been done to mitigate it.  In fact I predict and I'll be glad to be wrong, that there'll be a spate of them which seems to happen when one happens.

I'm not the judgemental one here.

I gave examples of people legally murdered by the state. You can call it "radical fringe" all you want, but the the state murders, kidnaps, and assaults all the time. It murdered Iraqis in a war based on lies, and tortured innocents in its war on terror, and the man who exposed it (John Kiriakou) went to prison. I take "fringe radical" as a compliment from people like you.  

It's not tolerated. It is treated like a crime. You want pre-crime. 

"fringe radical" and "demonic" seem like pretty judgmental terms.

[PhuturePriest]

I like how this entire thread has been a meme of itself.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people!"

"But abortion!"

"But law-abiding citizens!"

And hence why this will just be another tragedy in a long stream of tragedies that will amount to nothing more than memes and talking points which slowly fade away until they are reawoken by the next tragedy.

[Vernon]

7 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

I like how this entire thread has been a meme of itself.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people!"

"But abortion!"

"But law-abiding citizens!"

And hence why this will just be another tragedy in a long stream of tragedies that will amount to nothing more than memes and talking points which slowly fade away until they are reawoken by the next tragedy.

Sorry, we're just not perfect here like you are in the UK. (Except that you disproportionately kill many more babies than we do, but let's not talk about the trivial faults of your country).

[Mercedes]

11 hours ago, little2add said:

 human toll

There were 39,707 deaths from firearms in the U.S. in 2019. Sixty percent of deaths from firearms in the U.S. are suicides.

 More than half ( 23,941) died by firearm suicide.

According to data from CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics there were an estimated 93,331 drug overdose deaths in the United States during 2020, an increase of 29.4% from the 72,151 deaths predicted in 2019.

so roughly 16,000 people died unintentionally, violently by guns and 93, 331 by drug overdose.  

Compared to drug overdose deaths, gun violence is insignificant.  Compared to abortion deaths ( 630,000 in the US, 2019 ) both statistics are insignificant…

 

 

 

The primary reason the Church denounces abortion is not numbers but it's inhumanity.  To be fully human we have to believe that each and every person is made in the image of God and has a right to life.  Abortion is first and worst of all murders because these humans are the littlest and most defenseless.  That is why young born children should also incite the prolife conscience in the same way.  However it seems that many who call themselves prolife are more devoted to gun rights than the loss of childrens lives in school shootouts.  I would have thought a prolife movement would be devoting the same attention seen against abortion, to these most dreadful incidence of the killing of children in their schools.  If the constitution means guns must stay, spend whatever money it takes to fortify these places so loved by children killers.  Or something to protect them.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Mercedes

[Mercedes]

2 hours ago, Winchester said:

I gave examples of people legally murdered by the state. You can call it "radical fringe" all you want, but the the state murders, kidnaps, and assaults all the time. It murdered Iraqis in a war based on lies, and tortured innocents in its war on terror, and the man who exposed it (John Kiriakou) went to prison. I take "fringe radical" as a compliment from people like you.  

It's not tolerated. It is treated like a crime. You want pre-crime. 

"fringe radical" and "demonic" seem like pretty judgmental terms, you self righteous cow.

What is 'pre-crime'?  Is it a real term?  I understand crime prevention.  Do you reject policy designed to prevent crime?

42 minutes ago, Vernon said:

Sorry, we're just not perfect here like you are in the UK. (Except that you disproportionately kill many more babies than we do, but let's not talk about the trivial faults of your country).

I'm Australian.  Let us stay on topic.

[Vernon]

41 minutes ago, Mercedes said:

The primary reason the Church denounces abortion is not numbers but it's inhumanity.  To be fully human we have to believe that each and every person is made in the image of God and has a right to life.  Abortion is first and worst of all murders because these humans are the littlest and most defenseless.  That is why young born children should also incite the prolife conscience in the same way.  However it seems that many who call themselves prolife are more devoted to gun rights than the loss of childrens lives in school shootouts.  I would have thought a prolife movement would be devoting the same attention seen against abortion, to these most dreadful incidence of the killing of children in their schools.  If the constitution means guns must stay, spend whatever money it takes to fortify these places so loved by children killers.  Or something to protect them.

Yes, we need better protection in the schools. Students should not be sitting ducks. We have to go through metal detectors before we board a plane and the same should happen before entering a school. So I'm 100% in agreement about doing something to make schools safer. 

[Anomaly]

34 minutes ago, Vernon said:

Yes, we need better protection in the schools. Students should not be sitting ducks. We have to go through metal detectors before we board a plane and the same should happen before entering a school. So I'm 100% in agreement about doing something to make schools safer. 

Since a child is MORE than 8 times more likely to drown, we need to fill in private pools and only allow public pools, manned with licensed lifeguards.  

[Mercedes]

2 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Since a child is MORE than 8 times more likely to drown, we need to fill in private pools and only allow public pools, manned with licensed lifeguards.  

Or mandatory child proof fencing.

Quote

 

Pool safety laws in Australia

By law your pool or spa must be registered with council relevant to your area.

If a pool or spa has a depth of 30cm or more (300mm), it is required to be surrounded by safety barrier. This includes inflatable pools.

All pools must be fully enclosed by a barrier that is at least 1200mm in height, barriers can include fencing or walls.

The bottom of the pool fence and gate must be no more than 100mm off the ground.

If the horizontal rails are 900mm or more apart the verticals cannot exceed 100mm apart.

If the horizontals are less than 900mm apart the verticals must be no more than 10mm wide.

The gate must open away from the pool and never be propped open.

The gate must be self-closing from any position and self-latching.

The gate latch must be located at least 1500mm above the ground and at least 1400mm above the top part of the horizontal railings. Or the gate latch must be located on the inside of the fence.

All climbable objects must be at least 900mm away from the fence on the outside.

All non-climbable objects must not be within 300mm of the pool fence on the inside.

You must display a CPR sign prominently in the pool area (it should be legible from at least 3m away).

You cannot have a door access the pool from the house. Any windows around the pool must not open more than 100mm (excpet in Victoria they must not open more than 125mm) or must have screens and or locks.

Before selling, leasing or renting a property with a pool, you must obtain a pool safety certificate.

Fines for pool safety law non-compliance

In NSW fines for pool safety law non-compliance carries a maximum of $5,500. On-the-spot fines of $550 can also be applied.

In QLD you will cop a $235.60 on the spot fine to a maximum court penalty of $2,356 for non-compliance. As at 1 July 2019 all Queensland pools must meet the safety standard. If your pool does not comply with fencing law, you will be charged $133.45.

Owners and occupiers in WA breaking pool safety laws face a maximum penalty of $5,000 for non-compliance.

Pool safety law non-compliance will see you receiving a $1,652.20 fine in Victoria.

 

 

[Anomaly]

1 hour ago, Mercedes said:

Or mandatory child proof fencing.

 

The US has had those laws for decades, yet still.    Like gun laws, child fences don’t work.    Private pools should be outlawed.