StColette Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 [quote name='DojoGrant' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:26 PM'] Really? Because St. James says that we are justified by works, and not by faith alone. It says it. You said it doesn't. I'm banking on Scipture. [/quote] I'm going with you completely on this one ! The following Scripture passages are reference to the necessity of good works. I've had to list these and read these so often here lately that now I have the memorized lol Jas 2:14-26 Phil 2:12 2 Cor 5:10 Rom 2:6-13 Mt 25:32-46 Gal 6:6-10 Rev 20:12 The most understandable and most powerful is most likely Mt 25:32-46 "What you do unto the least of my brothers..." for the things all listed are good works that a true Christian must fulfill and do if not the punishment is quite clear: Mt:25:46: 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting. (DRV) But those who are the "just" are those that fulfill these good works that God requires of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conservativecatholic Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 15 2004, 12:54 PM'] Remind him about the gates of hell shall not prevail. If the Church went bad the Holy Spirit lied. [/quote] cmom, I did indeed tell him that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church and he agreed; although, he said the Church could remain sinful. As a Catholic, I disagreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 But conservative, think about how awesome what you've done is! The seed has been planted and I really do trust and believe that as long as you keep up the good [i]work[/i] (reference to the thread, lol) it will continue to grow! Fantastic job, I'm so excited for you! - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Also, remind him that (as I'm sure you have) [i]people[/i] are sinful, not the Church. The Spirit is with the Church always, and will never allow her to fall! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 15 2004, 08:00 AM'] Here you are running into the problem of the protestant view. Catholics argue that faith and works are [i]inseperable[/i], while Protestants argue they are two distinct things that can exist without one another. If a man does a good work, but not out of faith, it remains nominally good, but does nothing to bring him closer to God. If a man proclaims faith, but never does any good works, his "faith" is not true faith, but merely words. Thus, faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. If you cut a man in half, he is dead. [/quote] On the basis of what you have said, I don't see how Peter Kreeft or the Pope were wrong in saying that, [i]in the sense that Luther defined it, as being a 'heart faith' including works of charity[/i], sola fide is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 [quote name='DojoGrant' date='Jul 15 2004, 01:26 PM'] Really? Because St. James says that we are justified by works, and not by faith alone. It says it. You said it doesn't. I'm banking on Scipture. [/quote] The justification spoken of is that of showing forth that our faith is real, not of declaring before God that we are righteous. The former is of works, the latter is of faith only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conservativecatholic Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 15 2004, 03:08 PM'] Also, remind him that (as I'm sure you have) [i]people[/i] are sinful, not the Church. The Spirit is with the Church always, and will never allow her to fall! [/quote] Thanks so much for all your help Jeff and cmom. The seed has been planted like you said. I pray that they will find the light, and if they don't, at least they are not as prejudice and unimformed as they used to be. I will keep on working on them. May God Bless all of yall and May God Bless Phatmass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladybug Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Even though some do not believe that works are not part of salvation, they do good works anyway because they want to make God happy. So, in a way they believe in works I guess. It's just not something I argue with protestants over anymore. Some of them work harder than me and coordinate this or that thing for thier church and they don't stop working enough to rest. Rest can be a good work too. I would love to know why we are not connecting with protestants on this area. I think they believe that we don't believe in grace and mercy. I love my protestant friends and don't want to fight over it anymore. Anyone who loves Jesus cannot help but do good works. It's an unsatiable drive. But Mother Theresa said that we cannot all do great works but small works with great love. So smiling at someone, hugging them, praying for them...all of these things are small but GREAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 [quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 15 2004, 05:23 PM'] Anyone who loves Jesus cannot help but do good works. It's an unsatiable drive. [/quote] Sure, I agree with you 100%, however, anyone who says that these good works contribute one iota to our legal standing in righteousness before God is lying and headed for the lake of fire for teaching 'another gospel' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 (edited) That's the problem Icthus, salvation isn't a legal process, it is a famial process. Just the fact that Paul takes great pains not to put faith and alone together in scripture and that James speaks specifically against it puts any argument towards the position on extremely shakey ground. By faith, but faith is not all alone in justification. Edited July 15, 2004 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conservativecatholic Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 (edited) [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 15 2004, 06:07 PM'] Sure, I agree with you 100%, however, anyone who says that these good works contribute one iota to our legal standing in righteousness before God is lying and headed for the lake of fire for teaching 'another gospel' [/quote] You have no right to say who will be saved and who will be condemned. You stated that anyone who teaches or believes in salvation by works and faith will not inherit the kingdom of God. This planet presently is inhabited by 1.05 billion Catholics. You truly believe that 1.05 billion people will burn for eternity because of this belief? What a joke! Edited July 15, 2004 by conservativecatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 15 2004, 06:07 PM'] Sure, I agree with you 100%, however, anyone who says that these good works contribute one iota to our legal standing in righteousness before God is lying and headed for the lake of fire for teaching 'another gospel' [/quote] I leave you with these verses, which could speak for themselves as a refutation, but I'll still state my point here. These verses show judgement based on works done when faith still exists. Those thrown into the eternal fire clearly believed in Jesus, but did not reflect that in their works. Those who did show their faith in their works were rewarded with salvation. Both had faith, but only those with good works were saved. Matthew 25, 31-46 (NAB) "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 ooh Thank you for putting those verses up there because I think my post with verses concerning good works was over looked lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conservativecatholic Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 [quote name='StColette' date='Jul 15 2004, 06:52 PM'] ooh Thank you for putting those verses up there because I think my post with verses concerning good works was over looked lol [/quote] I saw your post. Thanks for the biblical verses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Sometimes you just have to emphasize the same stuff over and over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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