Faith And Good Works

[Brother Adam]

Icthus,

What group to you ascribe yourself to now. My statement about Faith and works is not meant to be taken as an all out doctrinal truth. It is merely a way of explaining that the concepts are not mutually exclusive. Faith and works both play a role in our justification. I suggest reading "Not by Faith Alone" by Robert Sugenis. It covers every possible biblical and historical angle you can come up with for subscribing to sole fide.

Works justify differently then what most Protestants conjure up in their minds as Catholic Salvation. In a strict sense none of us can ever merit salvation. For the wages of our work towards salvation can only be repaid by God with death, if we are to obligate him to pay us for our work, for none of us have held to the law perfectly. By committing sin, we recieve the actual wage or payment for sin, death.

But through Jesus Christ we no longer have to merit salvation in the strict sense. Through faith and obedience in Christ we merit salvation by Christ. Christ though did not abolish the law. Instead we have the new law through Jesus Christ to which we are to be obedient. It is in this law of grace - in which we do not obligate God to pay us for our works, but instead God graces us with adopted sonship and through which we work towards salvation in a non-obligatory sense. Thus Catholics never claim that there are any certian amount of works to be accomplished to "earn" your way to heaven. One needs only to stay in a state of grace to eventually enter the pearly gates.

Hope that this helps.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Hananiah' date='Jul 12 2004, 09:51 PM'] I disagree.

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because [b]love covers a multitude of sins.[/b]

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.

Luke 7:47
For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.

Also note 1 Cor 13:2. Although it doesn't explicitly say that love justifies it does say that a faith strong enough to move mountains (surely strong enough to apprehend the alien righteousness of Christ) is nothing without it. [/quote]
I would say, 'covers a multitude of sins' in that it makes up for the horrible effects of sin, and even prevents sins. But love can never have any effect on whether or not a persons sins are imputed to Christ, or remain on him, or not (which is justification)

[Brother Adam]

Ithcus is your view based on scripture, or are you trying to justify a passage to fit your view of scripture to which you want it to achive? You can speculate, but where is your positive proof?

[picchick]

Question for Ithcus:
It seems to me that you are agruing that love will not help you achieve salvation. If this is the case, then what about the scripture passage about Jesus separating the goats from the sheep? (Matthew 25:32-46) The goats were denied eternal salvation because they did not practice charity or love towards their neighbor.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I would also like to point out, Icthus, if you are not aware if this already, that you have placed yourself in a very awkward position. You have said that [quote]The works proceed from the faith as naturally as smoke from fire.[/quote] as if it is a refutation of the Church's teachings. It is not.

I will use your own analogy against you. You are camping, so you chop some wood and build a fire. Later on you take a walk and, from far off, you can see that there is no longer any smoke. Seeing a lack of smoke, you realise that the fire itself has died. In the same way, "faith without works is dead"

One could go on and expound upon the Church's teachings using this metaphor, for one would be remiss to say that wood can burn without causing smoke, just as one would be remiss to say that wood can burn without causing fire. The act of wood "burning" necessitates both fire and smoke. In the same way, the act of being saved by Christ necessitates both faith and works.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[catholicguy]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 13 2004, 06:43 PM'] I would say, 'covers a multitude of sins' in that it makes up for the horrible effects of sin, and even prevents sins. But love can never have any effect on whether or not a persons sins are imputed to Christ, or remain on him, or not (which is justification) [/quote]
Arguing with protestants in the past with me has proved unfruitful, mostly because they have all kinds of personal biases. Instead, read this post without saying, "that contradicts such and such a verse." If all of the Bible is infallible and true, then these verses are just as true as any other, so read it with an open mind instead of just basing everything you read on your personal belief and trying to adapt it somehow to that belief.

You would do well to read 2 St. Peter 3: 15, 16: "And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction."

What you have done is wrested (twisted) the words of St. Paul into something you can keep in line with your false belief, rather than reading it for what it actually says. St. Peter writes more (chapter 1, verses 20, 21 of same book):

"Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost." What more proof need there be? "NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE IS MADE BY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION." You cannot make your own personal translation of the Bible. That is simple un-Scriptural. He continues that prophecy comes not from man but men inspired by the Holy Ghost. This is exactly what the Church teaches. Only the Pope, inspired by the Holy Ghost, acting with or without a Council can define what the Bible actually teaches. All protestants make themselves their own pope of their own false religion. This is what you end up with: the doctrine of "sola Scriptura," which when proved wrong even with merely the Bible (inside your "sola Scriptura" ideology), you just say "I interpret that differently" so you can stay in error because you are obstiant and unwilling to change or to accept the truth. Then again, it is hard to believe there even is a truth with your "theology", since what is your "personal truth" in reading one verse could contradict every other "personal truth" of every other protestant in the world, yet you are still all correct and have "the truth." As St. Alphonsus Ligouri wrote: "Innovators say that the Lord gives each of the faithful a clear knowledge of Scripture. Behold, the 'private interpretation' of the heretics which has produced such a variety of creeds! Hence, after all the Congresses and Synods they have held, they have never been able to draw up a formula of uniform belief; [i]hence, everyone knows that among the Reformers there are as many formulas of faith as there are individuals[/i]. [u]This alone is sufficient to show that they are in error and do not have the true faith[/u]. God arranged that the true faith would be preserved in the Roman Church alone, so that, there being but one Church, there would be but one faith and one doctrine for all the faithful." Your theology is simply illogical and can be disproved by pure reason, as St. Alphonsus Ligouri notes: "This alone is sufficient to show that they are in [b]error[/b] and [u]do not have the true faith[/u]," that same "True Faith" that the Church declares is absolutely necessary for salvation.

God bless.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I'm really impressed with everyone's responses :thumb:, now where did Icthus run off to?

[catholicguy]

This section here should be amended as follows:

"St. Peter writes more (chapter 1, verses 20, 21 of same book):

"Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost." What more proof need there be? "NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE IS MADE BY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION." You cannot make your own personal [i][u]interpretation[/u][/i] of the Bible. That is [u][i]simply[/i][/u] un-Scriptural. ..."

Two errors in one line

That makes a bit more sense, if needed.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='picchick' date='Jul 14 2004, 07:41 AM'] Question for Ithcus:
It seems to me that you are agruing that love will not help you achieve salvation. If this is the case, then what about the scripture passage about Jesus separating the goats from the sheep? (Matthew 25:32-46) The goats were denied eternal salvation because they did not practice charity or love towards their neighbor. [/quote]
I would posit, therefore, that the goats were ever truly regenerate at all - unsaved, though they professed Christ with their lips.

[ICTHUS]

[quote]I will use your own analogy against you. You are camping, so you chop some wood and build a fire. Later on you take a walk and, from far off, you can see that there is no longer any smoke. Seeing a lack of smoke, you realise that the fire itself has died. In the same way, "faith without works is dead"[/quote] Agreed. I don't see how this refutes my original analogy, however. If a person stops living their faith in Christ, it is evident that they are apostate.

[quote]One could go on and expound upon the Church's teachings using this metaphor, for one would be remiss to say that wood can burn without causing smoke, just as one would be remiss to say that wood can burn without causing fire. The act of wood "burning" necessitates both fire and smoke. In the same way, the act of being saved by Christ necessitates both faith and works.[/quote]

But works are never spoken of as something [i]on the basis of which[/i] we are declared righteous by God! Rather, only faith is spoken of in this sense!

[picchick]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 14 2004, 05:51 PM'] I would posit, therefore, that the goats were ever truly regenerate at all - unsaved, though they professed Christ with their lips. [/quote]
Are you saying that they professed that Christ was their savior by their lips only and not with their hearts too? But how do you know? I did not see Jesus say in the Bible, "Depart from me into the fires of Hell because you only say that you believe in me." No. He says, "depart from me.... You did not feed me when I was hungry..." and so on.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]Agreed. I don't see how this refutes my original analogy, however. If a person stops living their faith in Christ, it is evident that they are apostate.[/quote]

I was not trying to "disprove" your analogy: just the opposite, I was merely trying to point out that your analogy is a wonderful discription of what the Church teaches.

[quote]But works are never spoken of as something on the basis of which we are declared righteous by God! Rather, only faith is spoken of in this sense![/quote]

Here you are running into the problem of the protestant view. Catholics argue that faith and works are [i]inseperable[/i], while Protestants argue they are two distinct things that can exist without one another.

If a man does a good work, but not out of faith, it remains nominally good, but does nothing to bring him closer to God.

If a man proclaims faith, but never does any good works, his "faith" is not true faith, but merely words.

Thus, faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. If you cut a man in half, he is dead.

This is exactly what the Church teaches, that the two are absolutely inseperable, and, ultimately, for one to live, he must be a man united.

Protestants try to argue that you can seperate works from faith. Catholics say that works and faith are one in the same.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[conservativecatholic]

Listen to this. My friend's dad is an extremely devout Protestant. We have debates constantly over anything and everything! One evening while arguing at Walmart, he finally told me that I had convinced him about being saved by both faith and works. I was so excited! I had gotten a Protestant to agree! This guy has read the Bible from front to back, back to front, and upsidedown. It gets better. He then told me that he believes that The Roman Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ in 33 AD; however, he then said that the Church was like Enron- Good in the beginning yet bad later on.

[cmotherofpirl]

Remind him about the gates of hell shall not prevail.
If the Church went bad the Holy Spirit lied.

[DojoGrant]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 14 2004, 05:57 PM'] But works are never spoken of as something [i]on the basis of which[/i] we are declared righteous by God! Rather, only faith is spoken of in this sense! [/quote]
Really? Because St. James says that we are justified by works, and not by faith alone.

It says it. You said it doesn't.

I'm banking on Scipture.