'Marxist cultural vision': USCCB head José Gomez decries social justice movements

[Matthew 10 42]

https://www.blackcatholicmessenger.com/gomez-madrid-speech/

"Curiously—and not unlike his oft-lauded auxiliary bishop Robert Barron—Gomez also appears to argue that the ongoing racial reckoning and its sister movements (which he paints as merely “woke”) are devoid of Christian influence.

The claim is complicated by the fact that at least one of the founders of Black Lives Matter is a Christian, and Jesus-followers of all stripes—including Catholics—have joined the multitude of protests over the past 18 months."

 

"His use of Pope Francis’ words is particularly ironic, given that not even three weeks ago the Holy Father praised George Floyd protesters as “collective Samaritans” in a conference address of his own.I

Incredibly Gomez also quotes Servant of God Dorothy Day (a known Christian anarchist) and Venerable Augustus Tolton (the first openly Black priest in America) in an attempt to underscore his argument."

[Peace]

7 hours ago, Matthew 10 42 said:

https://www.blackcatholicmessenger.com/gomez-madrid-speech/

"Curiously—and not unlike his oft-lauded auxiliary bishop Robert Barron—Gomez also appears to argue that the ongoing racial reckoning and its sister movements (which he paints as merely “woke”) are devoid of Christian influence.

The claim is complicated by the fact that at least one of the founders of Black Lives Matter is a Christian, and Jesus-followers of all stripes—including Catholics—have joined the multitude of protests over the past 18 months."

 

"His use of Pope Francis’ words is particularly ironic, given that not even three weeks ago the Holy Father praised George Floyd protesters as “collective Samaritans” in a conference address of his own.I

Incredibly Gomez also quotes Servant of God Dorothy Day (a known Christian anarchist) and Venerable Augustus Tolton (the first openly Black priest in America) in an attempt to underscore his argument."

Well if we are looking at the formal BLM organization itself, as opposed to the broader social movement, I don't think its going too far to refer to it as a socialist organization. I think 2/3 of the founders of the organization declared themselves to be Marxist. And it also appears that a large portion of the funds that BLM has collected have gone towards LGBTQ advocacy, rather than the cause of battling systemic racism. So I don't think its unfair to characterize that organization as fundamentally socialist and LGBTQ in its operations, and both of those are pretty incompatible with Christianity.

[hakutaku]

13 hours ago, Matthew 10 42 said:

Gomez also appears to argue that the ongoing racial reckoning and its sister movements (which he paints as merely “woke”) are devoid of Christian influence.

Talk about saying the quiet part out loud.  Church leaders don't fear conflict; conflict is exciting and engaging for their believers.  Nobody asks "are we really doing the right thing here?" when they're scared of some external enemy.

What church leaders do fear is irrelevance.  To see cultural advances happening without the church's influence is terrifying because people are going to start asking the hard questions.  Why did we have to work outside the church to make this improvement?  If the church believes what it says, why didn't it prioritize this sooner?  If the church can't get on the right side of this issue, why should we care about any of their other beliefs?

So what to do when society has in fact set off without you?  Gomez knows the way: pick a fight.  If you're not part of the solution, just prolong the problem and try to make the solvers look bad.

Edited November 5, 2021 by hakutaku

[Peace]

18 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

Talk about saying the quiet part out loud.  Church leaders don't fear conflict; conflict is exciting and engaging for their believers.  Nobody asks "are we really doing the right thing here?" when they're scared of some external enemy.

What church leaders do fear is irrelevance.  To see cultural advances happening without the church's influence is terrifying because people are going to start asking the hard questions.  Why did we have to work outside the church to make this improvement?  If the church believes what it says, why didn't it prioritize this sooner?  If the church can't get on the right side of this issue, why should we care about any of their other beliefs?

So what to do when society has in fact set off without you?  Gomez knows the way: pick a fight.  If you're not part of the solution, just prolong the problem and try to make the solvers look bad.

No, what they fear is the utter moral bankruptcy and attendant consequences that atheism always produces.

[hakutaku]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

No, what they fear is the utter moral bankruptcy and attendant consequences that atheism always produces.

I mean, that's what I said.  They can't stand the fact that moral progress is being made, so they have to demonize the people making it.

Its like how they were quaking in their boots about "grave peril" from the attendant consequences of legalizing gay marriage, which have utterly failed to materialize.

Quote

The unitive and procreative realities at stake cannot be ignored. They are not mere cultural constructs that can be discarded at will, with little or no social cost. Instead, they flow directly from the immutable nature of the human person, and so our society ignores them at great peril. By
contrast, where these human realities are respected, the benefits to society are unparalleled.

--USCCB, 2011

Turns out there was no "grave peril" to society, but rather to society's perception of Catholicism.

[Peace]

47 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

I mean, that's what I said. 

No, that is not what you wrote.

47 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

They can't stand the fact that moral progress is being made, so they have to demonize the people making it.

Nonsense.

47 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

Its like how they were quaking in their boots about "grave peril".

Give it time. People said the same thing about the predictions in Humanae Vitae, yet nearly all of them have henceforth been proven true.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Peace

[Ash Wednesday]

16 hours ago, Matthew 10 42 said:

The claim is complicated by the fact that at least one of the founders of Black Lives Matter is a Christian, and Jesus-followers of all stripes—including Catholics—have joined the multitude of protests over the past 18 months

Someone claiming Christianity or an organization having Christian followers does not mean its compatible with Christianity (and for the sake of this thread and the statement of Archbishop Gomez -- with Catholicism.) And I support the Archbishop in pointing the incompatibilities out. 

Many Catholic responders on the internet I've seen out there don't seem to understand the theological nuances of his critique, or that he's speaking of secular movements outside the Church, not the works of mercy inside it. 

[hakutaku]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

People said the same thing about the predictions in Humanae Vitae, yet nearly all of them have henceforth been proven true

Which ones specifically?

This one hasn't:

Quote

Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law.

I'm sure you weren't making broad generalizations without knowing the facts, so you're aware that

• Rates of infidelity are highest among couples in their 50s and 60s, rather than 20s or 30s.
• In many countries (including the USA), there are fewer abortions per capita today than when Humanae Vitae was written.
• There was a famous increase in violent crime, including sex crimes, but that was due to leaded gasoline, not relaxation of moral standards.  Most crime rates are about the same or better than they were when Humanae Vitae was written.
• Domestic partner violence is one that has definitely declined since the 70s, as society continued to move away from the view that men could "discipline" their wives physically.  Liberalized divorce laws also allowed women to escape abusers more easily.

Now you can certainly say that things like using contraceptives/pornography are themselves the harm, but then you're confusing the cause and effect.  That is, if all Humanae Vitae was predicting was "if people use pornography and contraceptives, then people will use pornography and contraceptives (and we don't like that)" then it was basically a tautological prediction.

 

 

 

[Matthew 10 42]

Gomez tells a story of a Christian outlook then as a "rival," the woke outlook. It reads as if he's never even met someone woke. They don't know where they come from? Huh? "Shared  interests" with those of the same skin color? The no fault line is especially telling and disturbing too.

In case this wasn't explicit enough, Gomez doubles down that these ideologies are profoundly athestic despite that Christian, and all major religious leaders, have played integral roles in these social movements. The ridiculous Marxist talking point is the cherry on top of this.

[Peace]

2 hours ago, hakutaku said:

Which ones specifically?

This one hasn't:

I'm sure you weren't making broad generalizations without knowing the facts, so you're aware that

• Rates of infidelity are highest among couples in their 50s and 60s, rather than 20s or 30s.
• In many countries (including the USA), there are fewer abortions per capita today than when Humanae Vitae was written.
• There was a famous increase in violent crime, including sex crimes, but that was due to leaded gasoline, not relaxation of moral standards.  Most crime rates are about the same or better than they were when Humanae Vitae was written.
• Domestic partner violence is one that has definitely declined since the 70s, as society continued to move away from the view that men could "discipline" their wives physically.  Liberalized divorce laws also allowed women to escape abusers more easily.

Now you can certainly say that things like using contraceptives/pornography are themselves the harm, but then you're confusing the cause and effect.  That is, if all Humanae Vitae was predicting was "if people use pornography and contraceptives, then people will use pornography and contraceptives (and we don't like that)" then it was basically a tautological prediction.

That was an amusing thought experiment you just engaged in there friend. Truly amusing.

[KnightofChrist]

2 hours ago, hakutaku said:

Which ones specifically?

This one hasn't:

I'm sure you weren't making broad generalizations without knowing the facts, so you're aware that

• Rates of infidelity are highest among couples in their 50s and 60s, rather than 20s or 30s.

Surprised you brought this up without mention of the growing number of young unwed couples living together. 

2 hours ago, hakutaku said:

• In many countries (including the USA), there are fewer abortions per capita today than when Humanae Vitae was written.

Interesting, but Pope Paul was writing to the whole world. Have abortions for the world as a whole increased or decreased per capita since Humanae Vitae was written?

2 hours ago, hakutaku said:

• Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law.

 

Seems to be more of a statement of fact in any time rather than a prediction. Humans are weak, humans need incentives to keep the moral law, the young especially, and it is evil to make it easy to break the law. How is this a prediction per se? 

[Peace]

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

Surprised you brought this up without mention of the growing number of young unwed couples living together. 

I suppose this poor fellow earnestly believes that being able to have sex without risk of pregnancy or an STI encourages people to remain faithful?

The reason why he cherry picked those particular stats is this, obviously.

https://voxeu.org/article/contraceptive-technology-and-decline-marriage

[hakutaku]

20 hours ago, Peace said:

The reason why he cherry picked those particular stats is this, obviously.

Which prediction from Humanae Vitae does that pertain to?

[hakutaku]

 

[hakutaku]

On 11/7/2021 at 1:59 AM, hakutaku said:

Which prediction from Humanae Vitae does that pertain to?

I'm asking because your data showed the shift in marriage/sex had already happened by the time Humanae Vitae was written, indeed, other sources say premarital sex trends have been roughly constant since the 1950s.  So assuming you're not saying it was a prediction-after-the-fact, what prediction are you actually talking about?