Elon Musk on track to be worlds first trillionaire

[Vernon]

Quote

An economic structure that allows this to happen while so many people in poverty, is as bad as Communism in my opinion.

Pretty sad thinking here, especially since this economic system has brought so much wealth to us all, enabling us to help people in poverty. Punish the rich and you punish the rest of us.

[Mercedes]

3 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

Isn’t he paying 11 billion in taxes for 2021? Yikes. 

I love that you said this and then quoted JPII, a man who would have clearly disagreed that such an economic structure is worse than communism.  

I didn't say 'is worse than communism'.  I said might be 'as bad as communism'.

Pope StJPII said as much in his encyclical Centesimus Annus.

"...can it perhaps be said that, after the failure of Communism, capitalism is the victorious social system, and that capitalism should be the goal of the countries now making efforts to rebuild their economy and society? Is this the model which ought to be proposed to the countries of the Third World which are searching for the path to true economic and civil progress?

The answer is obviously complex. If by "capitalism" is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a "business economy", "market economy" or simply "free economy". But if by "capitalism" is meant a system in which freedom in the economic sector is not circumscribed within a strong juridical framework which places it at the service of human freedom in its totality, and which sees it as a particular aspect of that freedom, the core of which is ethical and religious, then the reply is certainly negative.

The Marxist solution has failed, but the realities of marginalization and exploitation remain in the world, especially the Third World, as does the reality of human alienation, especially in the more advanced countries. Against these phenomena the Church strongly raises her voice. Vast multitudes are still living in conditions of great material and moral poverty. The collapse of the Communist system in so many countries certainly removes an obstacle to facing these problems in an appropriate and realistic way, but it is not enough to bring about their solution. Indeed, there is a risk that a radical capitalistic ideology could spread which refuses even to consider these problems, in the a priori belief that any attempt to solve them is doomed to failure, and which blindly entrusts their solution to the free development of market forces."

2 hours ago, Vernon said:

Pretty sad thinking here, especially since this economic system has brought so much wealth to us all, enabling us to help people in poverty. Punish the rich and you punish the rest of us.

In his letter Sollicitudo Rei Socialis reminiscing on the encyclical Populorum Progressio, Pope StJPII notes this...

"It should be noted that in today's world, among other rights, the right of economic initiative is often suppressed. Yet it is a right which is important not only for the individual but also for the common good. Experience shows us that the denial of this right, or its limitation in the name of an alleged "equality" of everyone in society, diminishes, or in practice absolutely destroys the spirit of initiative, that is to say the creative subjectivity of the citizen. As a consequence, there arises, not so much a true equality as a "leveling down." In the place of creative initiative there appears passivity, dependence and submission to the bureaucratic apparatus which, as the only "ordering" and "decision-making" body - if not also the "owner"- of the entire totality of goods and the means of production, puts everyone in a position of almost absolute dependence, which is similar to the traditional dependence of the worker-proletarian in capitalism. 

...Moreover, one must denounce the existence of economic, financial and social mechanisms which, although they are manipulated by people, often function almost automatically, thus accentuating the situation of wealth for some and poverty for the rest. These mechanisms, which are maneuvered directly or indirectly by the more developed countries, by their very functioning favor the interests of the people manipulating them at in the end they suffocate or condition the economies of the less developed countries. Later on these mechanisms will have to be subjected to a careful analysis under the ethical-moral aspect.

Populorum Progressio already foresaw the possibility that under such systems the wealth of the rich would increase and the poverty of the poor would remain."

[Vernon]

I think you need to demonstrate how one person's gain is necessarily another person's loss. He didn't steal it.

If you would like to take it all away from poor Elon and leave him destitute and give each person in the world an equal portion, we would each get $30 US. Do you feel that you have been somehow cheated out of $30 and Elon Musk owes that to you?

Do you think you might be a little bit influenced by "tall poppy syndrome"?

At any rate, what is your solution to this horrible injustice?

 

 

 

[Mercedes]

On 12/23/2021 at 11:06 AM, Vernon said:

I think you need to demonstrate how one person's gain is necessarily another person's loss. He didn't steal it.

If you would like to take it all away from poor Elon and leave him destitute and give each person in the world an equal portion, we would each get $30 US. Do you feel that you have been somehow cheated out of $30 and Elon Musk owes that to you?

Do you think you might be a little bit influenced by "tall poppy syndrome"?

At any rate, what is your solution to this horrible injustice?

 

 

 

As I stated numerous times, the thread isn't about Elon Musk personally but the inequity his wealth represents in the big picture.

The biggest earners this year included Big Pharma, big banks, the health insurance industry, the motor vehicle industry, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Warren Buffet, Elon Musk.  Forbes did an article about what percentage of tax some of these people contributed and it's shamefully minimal.  It's not hard to see how the collective billions in tax could support local areas in important ways that promote the human dignity of those at the bottom end of the pile and those who've fallen through the cracks.

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

[little2add]

Elon Musk's  companies now employ about 110,000 people worldwide. 

if the government seized his sizable assets then it might not fair well for them (his employees)

[ralfy]

Some more points to consider:

Something like the 200 richest people in the world have more wealth than 3.5 billion people.

Many economies are controlled by something like 1 to 20 pct of their populations.

The global economy itself is mostly controlled by a few thousand corporations, including the top 500, which are mostly in financing. They are also basically in control of governments that won't bite the hand that feeds them.

As of 2015, something like 7 out of 10 people lived on less than $10 daily (and that's daily, not per hour).

I think the ave. U.S. salary is in the top 1-10 pct of that of the world.

Much of what has been mentioned so far involves money, which is part of credit, and consists essentially of numbers stored in hard drives and, if needed, expressed in hard copy through commercial paper, bank notes, certificates, etc.

The actual base of all wealth consists of energy and material resources, and those are fairly fixed. Even what is considered abundant (like four centuries' worth of oil underground) is mostly difficult to access due to gravity (e.g., the amount of energy needed to get most of it is equivalent to the amount of energy that can be derived from it). As of 2005, if not earlier, the ave. per person usage of energy and resources worldwide has exceeded what is permitted before ecosystems break down.

More people worldwide want more, i.e., not only basic needs but wants, and those who are not in need are counting on them to earn and buy more because their own salaries, returns on investment, and wealth are dependent on increasing sales.

Finally, the Federation of American Scientists reported that there has been a twentyfold increase in arms production and deployment worldwide, and armaments have become increasingly destructive, and policies have involved using them to control resources.

 

 

[little2add]

all that glitters is not gold...

[Mercedes]

2 hours ago, little2add said:

Elon Musk's  companies now employ about 110,000 people worldwide. 

if the government seized his sizable assets then it might not fair well for them (his employees)

I'm not sure how you interpret tax reform with seizing assets?  It's tax reform.

[Credo in Deum]

Person A: There needs to be reform!

Person B: What are your solutions?

Person A:  People pay their fair share.

Person B: What are you solutions?

Person A: There needs to be reform!

 

And on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on

 

 

[Vernon]

6 hours ago, Mercedes said:

As I stated numerous times, the thread isn't about Elon Musk personally but the inequity his wealth represents in the big picture.

The biggest earners this year included Big Pharma, big banks, the health insurance industry, the motor vehicle industry, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Warren Buffet, Elon Musk.  Forbes did an article about what percentage of tax some of these people contributed and it's shamefully minimal.  It's not hard to see how the collective billions in tax could support local areas in important ways that promote the human dignity of those at the bottom end of the pile and those who've fallen through the cracks.

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

It is hard to see what you think is easy to see. Taking from the rich and spreading it around will only go so far. I made a point that you conveniently ignored twice, that if you took ALL of Elan Musk's wealth and redistributed it globally it would amount to a pittance per person. So what if they are big earners? How is that a bad thing? If you invented a pill that cured cancer and you became a trillionaire you would not only be filthy rich but the rest of us would be much richer as well since we would be healthier, more productive, and resources could be diverted to more positive things. BTW, "Big Pharma" is not a person. 

Bill Gates is wealthy not because he unfairly seized anything that belongs to us but because he imparted great value in exchange for what he received. Professional athletes earn millions for playing a game because their fans are happy to pay them. They don't want that money back in exchange for not having that entertainment value. Don't kill the goose that's laying the golden eggs.

[little2add]

5 hours ago, Mercedes said:

I'm not sure how you interpret tax reform with seizing assets?  It's tax reform.

It’s communism

[Dennis Tate]

On 10/22/2021 at 1:11 AM, Mercedes said:

Elon Musk, the world’s richest person, with an estimated $241bn fortune, could become the first trillionaire, an investment bank has predicted.

Analysts at Morgan Stanley forecast that Musk, who has made most of his wealth from the electric car company Tesla, could make much more money from his fledgling space exploration business SpaceX.

The analyst Adam Jonas said the company, founded in 2002, was “challenging any preconceived notion of what was possible and the timeframe possible, in terms of rockets, launch vehicles and supporting infrastructure”.

He added: “More than one client has told us if Elon Musk were to become the first trillionaire ... it won’t be because of Tesla. Others have said SpaceX may eventually be the most highly valued company in the world – in any industry.”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/oct/20/spacex-could-make-elon-musk-world-first-trillionaire-says-morgan-stanley

An economic structure that allows this to happen while so many people in poverty, is as bad as Communism in my opinion.  In Pope StJPII's first papal tour he spoke about an ideal society here...

To construct this more just world means, among other things, making every effort in order that there will be no children without sufficient food, without education, without instruction; that there will be no young people without a suitable preparation; that, in order to live and to develop in a worthy way, there will be no peasants without land; that there will be no workers ill-treated or deprived of their rights; that there will be no systems that permit the exploitation of man by man or by the State; that there will be no corruption; that there will be no persons living in superabundance, while others through no fault of their own lack everything; that there will not be so many families badly formed, broken, disunited, receiving insufficient care; that there will be no injustice and inequality in the administration of justice; that there will be no one without the protection of the law, and that law will protect all alike; that force will not prevail over truth and law, but truth and law over force; and that economic or political matters will never prevail over human matters.

As Catholics we need to find this news of excess accumulation, suspicious and unjust.

 

 

 

And....
I for one could present a pretty powerful case that real estate in rural USA and rural Canada is terribly underValued which......

could mean that he actually already is a true Trillionaire if the world economy were to be valued to more accurate levels......

 

 

[ralfy]

The largest component of credit worldwide is derivatives, or financial bets made on financial bets. The nominal amount is estimated at more than $1 quadrillion.

That's a thousand trillion dollars, and it's all essentially numbers written on paper and stored on drives.

Fallout from only one trillion dollars of that was needed to cause the 2008 global financial crash.

Outside that soaring debt and spending is the threat of a resource crunch coupled with the effects of environmental damage. Those will make financial crashes look like a walk in the park.