Doubts You've Had

[PhuturePriest]

This is an interesting thing I've been thinking about for a while, so I decided I would kick it off to the phorum to see where it went.

Basically, in super devout Catholic (and Christian in general) culture, there does not seem to be allowance or understanding for doubt among devout believers. For obvious reasons, the stress seems to be on the completely rational and reasonable nature of the faith as this impenetrable fortress of reason that can never be doubted by those who have truly studied it. While I understand this impulse in light of the culture which is assaulting the faith on all sides including its rationality, it nevertheless seems to put devout believers in a hard place when, despite their knowledge and understanding, they still struggle with certain aspects of the faith and Church teaching. I know that this particularly weighs on many priests and religious, who do not feel safe to ever admit that they experience periodic doubts or fears, and on many young Catholics and Catholic leaders in general who similarly do not feel free to admit these things for fear of backlash by their cohorts. I have known others who, due to the perception that no one else had doubts, believed that their doubts therefore meant that they did not truly believe in the first place. When I was younger I certainly had the view that my friends and role models simply never experienced doubts, which made me feel like a bad Catholic when I secretly had them. When I would find it in myself to share my doubts it was unfortunately often met with strong responses, and the genuineness of my faith and orthodoxy were often questioned.

These hidden doubts also manifested themselves in very strong (frankly aggressive) statements and attitudes of belief. I myself was scandalized by doubts, even within myself, and attacked them as signs of weakness when in reality I was just trying to convince myself.

I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this issue as a whole, but I would also be interested in opening up the floor for others to share doubts/struggles in Church teachings they have had in the past or even are currently experiencing as a means of breaking through this stigma. We all have doubts from time to time, so it's silly to pretend we don't and to act scandalized when others do. In my opinion, this seems to encourage isolated struggles that eventually grow and become a bigger deal than they have to be.

To be clear, anyone who shares past/present doubts is not intended to do so for the sake of debate or finding better arguments for those things, but to make the sharing of these things normal and not a terrible scandal. It is also not to put the Church in question. I believe and hold everything that the Church does. I do not, however, pretend that it is always easy to do so.

Since this is my idea, I suppose I should be the one to kick it off: in the past I have mainly struggled to understand Church teaching on matters like sin and hell (specifically how many mortal sins don't seem to merit eternal damnation and torment, and the idea of eternal damnation and torment in general), whether I can be confident that Christianity is true in general and Catholicism is true specifically when there are so many other religions and philosophies, and gay marriage (while I understood the arguments intellectually it did not seem problematic to me, and I found it difficult to think my friends were in the wrong and worthy of damnation -- see struggle #1 -- for acting on these feelings when they had genuine desires for love). I have also struggled with the idea of prayer -- am I really talking to God or just thinking, because experientially it feels exactly the same.

Doubts? Thoughts? Declarations of heresy and sentencing me to the pyre?

[Norseman82]

Pulling another all-nighter at Mundelein?   

[Matthew 10 42]

2 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

in the past I have mainly struggled to understand Church teaching on matters like sin and hell (specifically how many mortal sins don't seem to merit eternal damnation and torment,

I have doubts about the mortal sin thing. It makes sense to an extent. For instance sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin with full knowledge. It makes sense that if you gave yourself complety over to it with no looking back you would end up in hell if you died in that state.

Where it gets speculative to me is the one mortal sin will send you to hell. Not saying it can't happen and you can't give yourself complety over to a mortal sin one time with no intention of turning back and then suddenly die. With a malice towards God in your heart. In that case you may well go to hell. I think it's impossible to know if any one person is in mortal sin though. Only God knows. All these scenarios people try to play out can't be known but by God alone. 

This brings me to the Final Judgement in the Bible. Jesus separates people based on how they treated the poor. He says what you did to them you did to him. I was thirsty and you gave me water. I was hungry and you fed me etc. He says you literally go to Heaven or Hell based off that. He says in Matthew 10:42 anyone who gave a little one who believes in him cold water when they were thirsty will surely not lose their reward. 

I believe what the Church teaches on mortal sins and salvation. That you can turn away from God completely and go to hell. Yet I think the teaching has been abused by certain people and used to scare people. Fear of God is good to a point. But it can go to far and then you view God as a monster waiting for a "gotcha" moment to send you to hell. When Jesus talks about the final judgement he says where we go depends on how we treated the poor which was actually him in the flesh. And one cup of cold water given to him when he was thirsty comes with a promise you will surely not lose your reward. I'm guessing a person complety given over to mortal sin with a hate towards God would be less inclined to help the poor and see Jesus in them.

 

[Ash Wednesday]

I follow Steve Skojec on twitter, he helped run the site 1 Peter Five, and he has been going through some of his own issues, many of them in part due to past spiritual abuse in his life and feeling scandalized by what has been going on in the Church currently today -- and when discussing his frustrations many trads have been completely raking him across the coals for it, though I think some compassionate priests have been helpful. His conflict with toxic people in the Church has illustrated why, though my beliefs have shifted more towards a greater understanding of traditionalism, to a certain degree I remain somewhat arm's length about going both feet in, when trying to come to grips with whatever Catholicism I'm supposed to practice (this mass or that mass) it's more helpful to go back to the basics and remind myself that the bottom line is God is calling me to holiness above all things. 

I am not a relativist and will never advocate relativism or modernism. But there is also something to be said for the dangers of stringent, fear based practice that is not sincere and tries to overcompensate for the mess we are in, and not responding with love if someone is struggling with their faith. 

At the moment, I am not able to occupy my mind too much on who goes to hell. Maybe it's because I've had five people in my family die in the past year, one being a godparent that was murdered, and the other being my last living parent, and I emotionally am just not able to deal with it, it cramps my mind beyond belief and it's best to turn it over to God because only He knows souls. God only knows souls for a good reason -- not to despair and beaver dam someone to hell when they die, but it's also a reminder to care for souls and to pray for them too. 

I don't know if I've ever had any mind crippling doubts outside of times of severe spiritual dryness that bordered on indifference and agnosticism. I'm kind of all or nothing, if I wasn't a Catholic I would probably just be an agnostic who slept in on Sunday. 

I would be careful to not equate the efficacy and reality of prayer with emotional experience though. I don't have any specific advice about things except to keep praying to the Holy Spirit for guidance despite the wander through the desert, even when the night in the soul feels dark. 

[Matthew 10 42]

I follow Skojec as well. He recently wished death on Pope Francis multiple times. He's playing the victim now since selling his website but he does have my prayers. He has been pointing out some of the toxic trad stuff. He also attacked Pope Francis viciously when Francis celebrated World Water Day and a call for people to help those without it. Skojec went on about how Francis is turning the Church into some charity type thing etc instead of promoting "real catholicism". Doesn't this man understand what Jesus himself says about the Final Judgement? Jesus concentrates on the behaviour or lack there of with the people he judges. The righteous - give food to the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, offer shelter to the homeless, give clothing to the naked, offer help to and visit the sick, and visit those in prison. The wicked do not. When he separates the sheep from the goats the entire judgement is based on this.

[Ash Wednesday]

Yeah I don't really want this to get derailed and turned into a Skojec discussion thread, he clearly is going through something, I just I wanted to use him as a singular example of someone openly going through difficulties and having some sort of spiritual crisis but facing vitriol and backlash trying to navigate through it at the same time. 

[Matthew 10 42]

5 minutes ago, Ash Wednesday said:

Yeah I don't really want this to get derailed and turned into a Skojec discussion thread, he clearly is going through something, I just I wanted to use him as a singular example of someone openly going through difficulties and having some sort of spiritual crisis but facing vitriol and backlash trying to navigate through it at the same time. 

I feel you and also sorry about all the people you've lost. I pray they are with God now. He wills all to be saved and I believe a good majority will be. I appreciate Skojec calling out Taylor Marshall and his grift. And it is a sight to see how the Best Catholics of All Time are attacking him like crazy. Mark Shea recently wrote a blog post about it and how he is wishing Steve the best. Thought it was cool because they hate each other.

[Peace]

Oh I highly doubt all of it, at least subconsciously. Many times I feel like "all of this is a bunch of BS". What person who has had significant life experiences has not? When you pray for a sick loved one and he suffers and dies, as if your prayers are completely ignored? Stuff like that.

But I choose to believe anyway.

[chrysostom]

6 hours ago, Matthew 10 42 said:

I feel you and also sorry about all the people you've lost. I pray they are with God now. He wills all to be saved and I believe a good majority will be. I appreciate Skojec calling out Taylor Marshall and his grift. And it is a sight to see how the Best Catholics of All Time are attacking him like crazy. Mark Shea recently wrote a blog post about it and how he is wishing Steve the best. Thought it was cool because they hate each other.

You're back!

[PhuturePriest]

12 hours ago, Ash Wednesday said:

I follow Steve Skojec on twitter, he helped run the site 1 Peter Five, and he has been going through some of his own issues, many of them in part due to past spiritual abuse in his life and feeling scandalized by what has been going on in the Church currently today -- and when discussing his frustrations many trads have been completely raking him across the coals for it, though I think some compassionate priests have been helpful. His conflict with toxic people in the Church has illustrated why, though my beliefs have shifted more towards a greater understanding of traditionalism, to a certain degree I remain somewhat arm's length about going both feet in, when trying to come to grips with whatever Catholicism I'm supposed to practice (this mass or that mass) it's more helpful to go back to the basics and remind myself that the bottom line is God is calling me to holiness above all things. 

I am not a relativist and will never advocate relativism or modernism. But there is also something to be said for the dangers of stringent, fear based practice that is not sincere and tries to overcompensate for the mess we are in, and not responding with love if someone is struggling with their faith. 

At the moment, I am not able to occupy my mind too much on who goes to hell. Maybe it's because I've had five people in my family die in the past year, one being a godparent that was murdered, and the other being my last living parent, and I emotionally am just not able to deal with it, it cramps my mind beyond belief and it's best to turn it over to God because only He knows souls. God only knows souls for a good reason -- not to despair and beaver dam someone to hell when they die, but it's also a reminder to care for souls and to pray for them too. 

I don't know if I've ever had any mind crippling doubts outside of times of severe spiritual dryness that bordered on indifference and agnosticism. I'm kind of all or nothing, if I wasn't a Catholic I would probably just be an agnostic who slept in on Sunday. 

I would be careful to not equate the efficacy and reality of prayer with emotional experience though. I don't have any specific advice about things except to keep praying to the Holy Spirit for guidance despite the wander through the desert, even when the night in the soul feels dark. 

It's funny that you bring up Skojec, because he was one of the catalysts for this whole discussion for me.

I definitely empathize with the all or nothing mindset, I'd probably be a chill, hopeful agnostic who liked meditation and had confidence that something good would happen after I died.

I am sorry for all the loss that you've experienced, I will definitely keep you in my prayers.

[Anomaly]

On 10/4/2021 at 1:25 AM, PhuturePriest said:

This is an interesting thing I've been thinking about for a while, so I decided I would kick it off to the phorum to see where it went.

Basically, in super devout Catholic (and Christian in general) culture, there does not seem to be allowance or understanding for doubt among devout believers. For obvious reasons, the stress seems to be on the completely rational and reasonable nature of the faith as this impenetrable fortress of reason that can never be doubted by those who have truly studied it. While I understand this impulse in light of the culture which is assaulting the faith on all sides including its rationality, it nevertheless seems to put devout believers in a hard place when, despite their knowledge and understanding, they still struggle with certain aspects of the faith and Church teaching. I know that this particularly weighs on many priests and religious, who do not feel safe to ever admit that they experience periodic doubts or fears, and on many young Catholics and Catholic leaders in general who similarly do not feel free to admit these things for fear of backlash by their cohorts. I have known others who, due to the perception that no one else had doubts, believed that their doubts therefore meant that they did not truly believe in the first place. When I was younger I certainly had the view that my friends and role models simply never experienced doubts, which made me feel like a bad Catholic when I secretly had them. When I would find it in myself to share my doubts it was unfortunately often met with strong responses, and the genuineness of my faith and orthodoxy were often questioned.

These hidden doubts also manifested themselves in very strong (frankly aggressive) statements and attitudes of belief. I myself was scandalized by doubts, even within myself, and attacked them as signs of weakness when in reality I was just trying to convince myself.

I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this issue as a whole, but I would also be interested in opening up the floor for others to share doubts/struggles in Church teachings they have had in the past or even are currently experiencing as a means of breaking through this stigma. We all have doubts from time to time, so it's silly to pretend we don't and to act scandalized when others do. In my opinion, this seems to encourage isolated struggles that eventually grow and become a bigger deal than they have to be.

To be clear, anyone who shares past/present doubts is not intended to do so for the sake of debate or finding better arguments for those things, but to make the sharing of these things normal and not a terrible scandal. It is also not to put the Church in question. I believe and hold everything that the Church does. I do not, however, pretend that it is always easy to do so.

Since this is my idea, I suppose I should be the one to kick it off: in the past I have mainly struggled to understand Church teaching on matters like sin and hell (specifically how many mortal sins don't seem to merit eternal damnation and torment, and the idea of eternal damnation and torment in general), whether I can be confident that Christianity is true in general and Catholicism is true specifically when there are so many other religions and philosophies, and gay marriage (while I understood the arguments intellectually it did not seem problematic to me, and I found it difficult to think my friends were in the wrong and worthy of damnation -- see struggle #1 -- for acting on these feelings when they had genuine desires for love). I have also struggled with the idea of prayer -- am I really talking to God or just thinking, because experientially it feels exactly the same.

Doubts? Thoughts? Declarations of heresy and sentencing me to the pyre?

I relate to what you’re saying, especially about the  reaction of Catholics and other Christians to doubts.   I found, practically universally, the response is an attack.    
If you can’t defend, explain, and justify your Christian faith with logic and kindness, then it ultimately is just a chosen way to believe.   It’s not a lie if you believe it, but it doesn’t make it true.  
From way back in the beginning of Phatmass,  when I taught Confirmation classes at my parish, I always was concerned about pointing my kids to this site because of that nasty and fundamentally hypocritical reaction that is so destructive. 
I’ve seen many people fall away from religion because of the turn or burn philosophy.  Sadly, it seems the nastiest persons are almost always the most outwardly devout, in any religion. 

I’ve known a few kids I grew up with become priests, as well as a few people as seminarians that became ordained.  A few are wonderful people.   FP, keep at it. You will be a great priest if you nurture kindness and sincerity to temper your flaws and doubts. The world can use some good karma. 

[Shelby]

Well...I can't keep up with this conversation. Oh well

On a side note...I struggle with the homeless too, because where I live they are aggressive. On time, I had a homeless guy come up to me in my parked car while I was eating lunch, and demanded for some money because I have a burger in my hand -not a nice guy. I refused, and he started yelling and cussing so, I started my car and drove away from him. I was pretty scared!

Other times, the a couple other homeless just yell at me and say "God is judging you!" when I drive by. 

I hope Jesus doesnt mind, I would rather donate money to my Parish, than a homeless person. Besides, there are so many jobs begging for workers and I notice that the homeless just don't want to be hired.

 

 

[Machine_Washable]

On 10/4/2021 at 8:25 AM, PhuturePriest said:

This is an interesting thing I've been thinking about for a while, so I decided I would kick it off to the phorum to see where it went.

Basically, in super devout Catholic (and Christian in general) culture, there does not seem to be allowance or understanding for doubt among devout believers. For obvious reasons, the stress seems to be on the completely rational and reasonable nature of the faith as this impenetrable fortress of reason that can never be doubted by those who have truly studied it. While I understand this impulse in light of the culture which is assaulting the faith on all sides including its rationality, it nevertheless seems to put devout believers in a hard place when, despite their knowledge and understanding, they still struggle with certain aspects of the faith and Church teaching. I know that this particularly weighs on many priests and religious, who do not feel safe to ever admit that they experience periodic doubts or fears, and on many young Catholics and Catholic leaders in general who similarly do not feel free to admit these things for fear of backlash by their cohorts. I have known others who, due to the perception that no one else had doubts, believed that their doubts therefore meant that they did not truly believe in the first place. When I was younger I certainly had the view that my friends and role models simply never experienced doubts, which made me feel like a bad Catholic when I secretly had them. When I would find it in myself to share my doubts it was unfortunately often met with strong responses, and the genuineness of my faith and orthodoxy were often questioned.

These hidden doubts also manifested themselves in very strong (frankly aggressive) statements and attitudes of belief. I myself was scandalized by doubts, even within myself, and attacked them as signs of weakness when in reality I was just trying to convince myself.

I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this issue as a whole, but I would also be interested in opening up the floor for others to share doubts/struggles in Church teachings they have had in the past or even are currently experiencing as a means of breaking through this stigma. We all have doubts from time to time, so it's silly to pretend we don't and to act scandalized when others do. In my opinion, this seems to encourage isolated struggles that eventually grow and become a bigger deal than they have to be.

To be clear, anyone who shares past/present doubts is not intended to do so for the sake of debate or finding better arguments for those things, but to make the sharing of these things normal and not a terrible scandal. It is also not to put the Church in question. I believe and hold everything that the Church does. I do not, however, pretend that it is always easy to do so.

Since this is my idea, I suppose I should be the one to kick it off: in the past I have mainly struggled to understand Church teaching on matters like sin and hell (specifically how many mortal sins don't seem to merit eternal damnation and torment, and the idea of eternal damnation and torment in general), whether I can be confident that Christianity is true in general and Catholicism is true specifically when there are so many other religions and philosophies, and gay marriage (while I understood the arguments intellectually it did not seem problematic to me, and I found it difficult to think my friends were in the wrong and worthy of damnation -- see struggle #1 -- for acting on these feelings when they had genuine desires for love). I have also struggled with the idea of prayer -- am I really talking to God or just thinking, because experientially it feels exactly the same.

Doubts? Thoughts? Declarations of heresy and sentencing me to the pyre?

I think it is usually better to cover doubts than to expose them. Doubt is contagious. So is faith. But there is sometimes good in discussing these issues. 
 

I also struggle with the issue of hellfire. But we do not believe that hellfire is necessarily forever. It is well established that some Muslims will go to hell and then be rescued from the hellfire. Eternal hellfire is more difficult to understand. My favorite theologian, sheikh al Islam ibn Taymiyyah, wrote, while imprisoned, that it is not heretical to believe that everybody will eventually be rescued from the hellfire. One of the top academics studying him, a non-Muslim named Dr Jon Hoover, feels that this was ibn Taymiyyah’s opinion, he just was a bit coy about stating it directly as he was already imprisoned. Even if ibn Taymiyyah is wrong, I comfort myself knowing that Allah (SWT) has decreed on Himself that He will not deal unjustly with any soul. And this is true even if we can’t understand how eternal hellfire is just with our limited faculties.  

[Ash Wednesday]

On 10/5/2021 at 8:56 PM, Shelby said:

Well...I can't keep up with this conversation. Oh well

On a side note...I struggle with the homeless too, because where I live they are aggressive. On time, I had a homeless guy come up to me in my parked car while I was eating lunch, and demanded for some money because I have a burger in my hand -not a nice guy. I refused, and he started yelling and cussing so, I started my car and drove away from him. I was pretty scared!

Other times, the a couple other homeless just yell at me and say "God is judging you!" when I drive by. 

I hope Jesus doesnt mind, I would rather donate money to my Parish, than a homeless person. Besides, there are so many jobs begging for workers and I notice that the homeless just don't want to be hired.

 

 

Next to Westminster Cathedral in London I saw an ad that had a silhouette with chalk around it, only the "body" was made of coins -- warning people that giving money to the panhandlers on the property could actually be doing them harm. This is especially a problem in that part of London -- just warning people that addicts would use the money for drugs and alcohol. 

If we look at the corporal works of mercy: feeding the hungry, visiting the imprisoned, burying the dead, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, giving shelter to travelers, and offering drink to the thirsty -- interestingly enough, none of these involve directly giving anyone money. That is not to say that we shouldn't give money to charities or support our parishes -- as we should. But when it comes to beggars, instead of giving them money -- if someone does feel the need to do something on site, I think it's better to offer them some food, or something to drink instead.