fides' Jack's Mega Anti-Vax Thread

[fides' Jack]

On 11/29/2022 at 5:24 PM, mommas_boy said:

Please explain precisely how taking the vaccine is supposedly sinful so that I may respond by reducing your argument to absurdity.

I have already done so multiple times, but I would be glad to do so again.  I don't expect you to go back through 33 pages of this monstrosity to try to find those arguments.

I won't have time to expound on every argument there is, because the evidence of the immorality of the covid shots for the majority is more than overwhelming.  I'll hit some of the major highlights.

In your attempts to argue reductio ad absurdum, I urge you not to make the mistake of arguing by "whataboutism", which does nothing to show that the shots are morally licit.  I would also urge you not to make the argument from scientific authority.  Authoritative arguments do make a difference in Catholic morality, but not the authority of scientists or government leaders, alone.  I have argued below from a standpoint of Catholic morality, which supersedes any and all arguments to a non-magisterial authority, and even most arguments from individuals within the magisterium, excepting that they show my application of Catholic moral teaching to be incorrect in principle.

#1: The covid shots are a sin against the virtue of prudence

The vaccines were rushed, and experimental.  We had ZERO knowledge ahead of time regarding their safety or effectiveness, especially long term, but even short term.  For all we knew, it could have been more or less dangerous than covid itself.  It could have been less dangerous than driving a car, or more dangerous than a game of Russian Roulette.  All we had to go on was the fact that the government, and government-paid doctors, insisted it was "safe and effective".  More than that, we were forbidden from knowing the actual ingredients of the shots.  We still are - officially.  Even more than that, 2 of the 3 in the US were created using a brand new technology (brand new in terms of never having been approved for use in the US for any vaccine before).  Even more than that, Trump enacted Operation Warp Speed, which allowed this never-before-used technology to go to full public use without spending the time that was required for the not-so-experimental technologies to get approved.  Even more than that, we were told that it was going to be free for everyone, which means that these big-pharma corporations were going to get billions of taxpayer dollars out of the whole thing.  Even more than that, we were told that these same big-pharma corporations were not going to be held liable if, in fact, their vaccines turned out to not be safe (which even Biden and Harris admitted ahead of time might be the case).  All of these things, and much more, we knew before the first person ever received one of them.  And that's not even touching the trustworthiness of the people pushing the vaccines.  You can choose to trust the "safe and effective" line, but it is imprudent to do so when there are so many unknowns, and so many things working against them being truly safe and effective.  For those who were unaware of these conditions before getting the shots, they still sinned against prudence because they had a moral obligation to learn for themselves.  

The covid virus, by the numbers given to us by the same politicians who claimed the shot is "safe and effective", was already shown to only be dangerous for those who were past the average life expectancy age, or those who had 2 or more comorbities. (these often ended up being the same people - old and multiple comorbities)

Therefore, unless you were pretty sure that covid was going to kill you, it was a sin against prudence to take the covid shots.

#2: The covid shots maintain a connection to abortion

We were told, of the 3 covid shots available in the US, only 1 was not derived from or tested using aborted fetal tissue.  We later found that was a lie - all 3 are connected to abortion (we had no real evidence that the pfizer shot wasn't, except their word, but that's an argument related to the "prudence" section).  It was revealed a year later through official documents linked to Project Veritas that Pfizer had lied about their shot not having a connection to abortion.

There are some arguments against this position:

2a: Remote material cooperation - in order to justify the use of the shots, even though they were connected to abortion, we were reminded by Church hierarchy of the moral theory of remote material cooperation (not an accepted doctrine).  However, those who used this argument did so incorrectly.  They argued that the connection to abortion is so remote that it was really a non-connection.  Most of the time we saw a number of years posited between when the babies were aborted and the making of these vaccines.  For those paying attention, theologians reminded us that remote material cooperation is not about a number of years, but about degrees of separation.  If I pay an assassin to kill someone there is no moral difference between me paying them now or in 100 years.  Others argued with "whataboutism", bringing up that almost any product you see or can buy out there has some connection to abortion, which, while arguably true (to a more or less extent, depending on the good or service), it doesn't excuse us from avoiding the connection to abortion in the case of the shots.  Indeed, all of us are morally obligated, as far as we are reasonably able, to avoid any good or service with any connection to abortion.  

Other theologians, and clergy, reminded us that even accepting the theory of remote material cooperation (which doesn't apply as much as was touted), the shots could still only be morally accepted under certain circumstances, according to papal encyclicals and the CCC.  Some of those conditions regarding taking the morally-tainted shots are that: 

a. There must be an immediate grave danger to the health of the individual getting the shot (i.e. they must be reasonably sure they will be severely injured without it)
b. They must be reasonably sure that the morally-tainted shot won't do more harm than good (I've already shown that nobody could have been remotely sure about that)
c. They must object to the morally-tainted means by which the shot was made; they must make it clear they object morally to the connection to abortion
d. There must be no other morally licit option available (you can make the argument for the US that since it wasn't initially clear that pfizer was guilty of using aborted fetal tissue in their production, that this specific point wouldn't apply - and even bishops were telling people to go with pfizer if they could because it wasn't supposed to be connected to abortion - but points a and b still apply, regardless)

2b: We have a moral, Christian obligation to bury the dead

Most people overlook other moral considerations when considering abortion-derived fetal cells lines.  Murder is not the only sin involved, specifically with regard to shots made with, or tested during production with, abortion-derived fetal cell lines.  Even if the connection to murder was remote (it's more remote than actually killing the baby yourself, but not as remote as opening a chase bank account), there is still the active sin of supporting a practice that encourages the exploitation of human remains.  We have a duty to bury the dead.  The cells harvested from the abortion, though they have been replicated and reproduced, still belong to the dead body of the baby they took them from, just as surely as your skin cells, which have also replicated and reproduced, belong to you.  Those cells are part of the remains of the murdered infants, and should be treated with dignity, and put to rest and buried, not used for additional scientific advancement.

#3: The covid shots are a sin against the first commandment

"I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have strange gods before me"

3a: 2 of the 3 shots available in the US use mRNA technology.  The whole idea is that they manipulate a person's RNA in order to make the person's own body start creating spike proteins to stimulate an immune system reaction.  As at least one priest has brought up, we don't have the moral authority to start playing God with our own bodies like that.  We now have advanced scientifically far enough that we know some of the underlying mechanisms, such as DNA and RNA, that God uses to design us.  We have no right to do anything to our bodies that would or could affect those underlying mechanisms, just as men have no moral right to call themselves women, and women have no moral right to call themselves men.  The only exception to this rule is in the case that there is need to restore the natural order, and then only in cases of severe risk to health if that restoration is not made, and even after that only in cases where we are certain that the action won't affect those cells that have to do with reproduction (i.e. we're sure that what we do won't affect offspring).  It is gravely sinful to scientifically enhance the human body with any means that makes the body do something outside of the natural order.

3b: The Church maintains that all persons must be given freedom of conscience.  Saintliness requires an extra level of self-sacrifice - the ability to choose to avoid offending God, even at extreme personal risk. Given the moral objections raised in #2 above, the obvious "saintly" choice would be to choose God above "scientific" measures.  By not doing so, all other moral considerations besides, we choose ourselves and our own knowledge and understanding over God.  That may not be the intention in all cases, but it's certainly a consideration.  It may not always be gravely sinful in all situations, but it remains an act of idolatry, and at least a venial sin - based on this argument.

#4: The covid shots are a sin against the virtue of patriotism

Patriotism, being a sub-virtue to that of piety, requires that people reject authoritarian power-moves that oppress the poor and limit their personal freedoms.  Especially in the US, we value the freedoms of religion, association, expression, speech, etc....   Specifically, the freedom of religion aside in this argument, we have a moral duty to act to preserve the virtues and values this country was founded on (at least those that don't conflict with the moral teaching of the Church).  That's why we're morally obligated to vote.  The shots came well after the shutdowns, which were also gravely immoral.  But the shots themselves were a continuation of that authoritarian mode of thinking.  The proof of this is that the shots were eventually mandated for much of the population (and continue to be mandated for much of the population).  We must have the freedom to choose according to our conscience NOT to receive something we believe is immoral.  By taking the shot, you are weakening the freedoms you currently enjoy for yourself and for others.  It is as much a sin of omission, by going with the flow instead of taking a stand and doing your part as a citizen, as it is anything else.  The US was founded on the self-sacrifice of people who recognized their moral obligations to serve their country.  It has been defended and served by others of the same mindset.  It's only now that we stop caring.

Of course, I'm arguing using language specific to the United States of America here, but it could be just as easily applied to any other country, at least in the Western world.

#5: The covid shots further the spirit of the antichrist

Whether or not you choose to believe that we are nearing the end times, the Church teaches that the devil has been fighting against the Church since her founding.  We know the demonic spirit of the antichrist and the antichurch is alive and well.  Every pope has said it for over a hundred years.  "The smoke of satan has entered the Church".  The fact that it's alive particularly throughout the pandemic is evidenced by the claim throughout the Western world in 2020 that churches were not "essential services", but abortion clinics were.  Add to that the fact that covid happened very shortly after the pachamama scandal, and that a mark of some kind became required either over your mouth or as an injection in your arm, in order to buy or sell, and I don't see how anyone can deny not just that they are in the spirit of the antichrist, but that we are nearing the end times.  There can be no greater indication of this than the bishops throughout the entire world temporarily suspended the public Continual Sacrifice.  Still, even if you only admit the former, having anything to do with it cannot constitute anything less than spiritual treason against God and His Church.

#6: Rebuttals in advance of other arguments

People have brought up the moral consideration of our duty to protect the health and well-being of our neighbor.  There are various way to apply this logic, from wearing a mask or taking the shot to prevent others from getting sick, to a nurse choosing to accept the risks of the masks or the shots in order to continue helping and serving the sick and infirm who legitimately need medical care, whether their maladies are a result of covid, or the shots, or something else entirely.  

While I can understand and even sympathize with these positions, I'm afraid they do not negate the other considerations already brought up.  Nor are these positions morally equivalent.  It's one thing to risk your personal health to help other people due to possibly catching a virus (such as St. Damien of Molokai), but don't equate that actual self-sacrifice to the act of choosing to offend God (or even possibly offend God) in order to tend to the sick and suffering.

On the matter of avoiding spreading covid by wearing masks or taking shots, I think it's pretty clear at this point that it was never the case that the shots helped do that.  That's admitted by the government, by the left media, by nearly everyone at this point.  So if you still believe you're being charitable by taking the shot, you're not just wrong, but it's a lesser argument than the moral considerations above, anyway, so it's moot.  It never was the case.  But I know some people really believed that initially.  

There you have it.

This is not a comprehensive set of arguments.  It's one of the more nuanced that I've written up, but it's been a while, so it was a good exercise.  Any one of these is enough, on its own, to make the action of taking a covid shot immoral for almost all people.  

That being said, I make no judgements about any specific person who has taken the shots.  As I've stated, I don't know anybody's particular situation, especially people I've only spoken to online.  My position regarding the morality of the shots is a general one.  I don't apply it to specific people - that's not my job.

I choose to forgive those who have persecuted me and my family, and who will persecute me and my family in the future, over this and the next thing, which might actually be the mark of the beast.  

The Mass will be shutdown again, even across the entire world.  That is guaranteed by our Faith.  Many will be forced to accept compromises and apostatize, or will be put to death.  We are also guaranteed this by our Faith.  Those who persevere in the Faith and in the Commandments unto the end will receive their reward.  In the end, Christ will triumph.

Edited December 1, 2022 by fides' Jack

[fides' Jack]

On 11/29/2022 at 9:17 AM, fides' Jack said:

https://rumble.com/v1wac7i-world-premier-died-suddenly.html

https://www.naturalnews.com/2022-12-02-stew-peters-footage-fraud-died-suddenly-ruby.html

If this is true, then I apologize for posting the link to the Died Suddenly false documentary, and I now distance myself from anything related to Stew Peters.  If this is true, this kind of misinformation helps nobody.

That being said, I don't know if it's true or not.  I suppose it would be just as easy to take his footage, put it on something else, and claim that it was an earlier video.  Certainly that kind of discretitation is going on elsewhere.  But if I'm honest, in this case I'm more likely to disbelieve Stew Peters than to believe him.

[fides' Jack]

FDA is finally admitting the covid vaccines cause blood clots:

https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://www.theepochtimes.com/health/pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-linked-to-blood-clotting-fda_4930377.html

Some embalmers are claiming that half of all bodies they are embalming lately have these extremely long and unusual blood clots.  

I've been sitting on this for over a year and not saying anything about the clots, because I wanted proof before I started posting on it here. 

Now it's undeniable.

Excess deaths in some countries are as high as 500%, and they appear to be climbing.  Massive die-offs could happen in 1-3 years.

[cruciatacara]

I know I shouldn't be doing this but for some reason I am in a posting mood today so here goes...

Who are you trying to convince here? Your thread goes on and on and on and on and says basically the same thing over and over and over again. You don't need to convert those to your way of thinking who already agree, and those of us who disagree will never be converted so what actually is the point? I mean, you certainly have the right to express your opinion but there can't be anyone on this forum who doesn't know what that is already.

Anyway, I have said this to you before so I am being redundant as well, but 

VACCINES SAVE LIVES

- despite the side effects (which are inherent in all medications) and all your 'facts' and 'figures' won't change that. 

Peace.

[Nunsuch]

Also, the "Epoch Times" is an extremist website (not a source for scientific information), sponsored by the Chinese Falun Gong. It should not be given credence on anything. 

[fides' Jack]

2 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

sponsored by the Chinese Falun Gong.

Fair enough.  I've made the same point about far-left news sources like HuffPo or NYT.  I can see why the far-left would label the Epoch Times as extremist, though I disagree.  

Interestingly, the Chinese Falun Gong was started against the Chinese Communist Party.  In my view that adds to their credibility.  The underground Church is alive and thriving in China.  Many saints are being made in China right now.

The reason I chose that link, as opposed to many others that I found on the matter, is specifically because I thought the Epoch Times were a bit more trustworthy, AND because it actually consolidated the study's findings pretty well; if you read the study and the article with Epoch times, you'll find the same.

Be that as is may, the source was a study from the journal ScienceDirect published on Dec 1.  It's been posted across the internet on many sites, including the Epoch Times.   https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/pii/S0264410X22014931?token=50EF64FA38CD842B614F4ACAC876B034010AD9BD379C8C9422809B612CB9CE128944010815DCE44F14750616F0282DC3&originRegion=us-east-1&originCreation=20221220172806

14 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

VACCINES SAVE LIVES

Some vaccines save lives.  Covid shots are not vaccines.

14 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

- despite the side effects (which are inherent in all medications)

Do you deny that covid shots are more dangerous than all other "vaccines" in history combined?  Because based on the govt VAERS data, which is estimated to be underreported by up to 100 times, that's the case.  

Agreed, side effects are inherent in all medications, especially if used improperly.  That's why it should always be up to the individual.  This makes the mandates not just immoral, but gravely immoral.

Do you deny any of this?

14 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

Who are you trying to convince here?

I keep posting on this because it's still important.  We have only begun to see the tip of the iceberg of the ramifications of this.

At some point, the truth will be known and recognized.  At that moment, you'll understand the severity of this.  What you do after that could very well determine your eternal salvation.  If you choose to disbelieve the truth, and to believe the false priests of the religion of science, you could lose salvation.

Our history is the same story, over and over again.  God's people turn to the world, and to sin, and to their own knowledge.  God causes those people to be blind to the truth for a time, in order that when He lifts that veil, that they see the fulness of their treachery, and turn back to Him.  Sometimes that happens before He chastises them, but sometimes it doesn't.  We're already seeing chastisements, and the veil has not been lifted for most - but I do believe anyone who truly wants to know the truth will pray for it, and will be open to it, and God will allow them to know the truth. 

All of this He allows this so that we might love Him more, and know Him more.  We repeat this time and time again.

The present confusion and chaos will serve God's Kingdom in the end.  We will eventually see how and why.  But many of us won't be alive any more to experience that.

The message I want to spread is pretty simple: repent and be converted.  If you're not already praying to see the truth and also for the strength to turn away from yourself and allow God to convert you, then I urge you to do so.

[cruciatacara]

Well, you lost me when you said my salvation depends upon whether or not I get a vaccine - that is what you were saying, right?

And no, I do not agree that COVID vaccines are any worse in terms of side effects than any other vaccine. I think you are living in a conspiracy world where everything seems suspicious to you. That's ok. We all have a right to our owns little worlds.

I am someone who can only praise the COVID vaccine. I have had four of the COVID shots (yes, they are vaccines) and managed to avoid COVID for two and a half years through masks and social distancing etc. After attending a social event for Thanksgiving, I contracted a variant of COVID and at as I am elderly, I was given anti-virals as well as the usual medicines for symptoms. All of my siblings contracted the virus at the same time, and we have all been vaccinated and boosted, thank God, so not one of us ended up in hospital. Because of the vaccines, I didn't die or end up on a respirator and am now recovered. 

I grew up during the polio scare and before we had all the MMR vaccines for school children. My large family was always catching one thing or another, and it was dangerous. Measles can cause blindness or deafness, mumps can cause sterility in men, etc etc. All medicines have side effects, that is true, but one has to weigh the benefits against the costs when determining whether to vaccinate. Because of my upbringing, I trust vaccines, and have only benefited from them. The few who have an anecdotal story about how they suffered from a vaccine has to be weighed against the millions who died of COVID before the vaccine was produced.I find it hard to understand how people can so quickly forget the fact that only a few years ago the hospitals were full of people on respirators and there were refrigeration trucks full of dead bodies. We were all terrified to accept packages into our homes without sanitising first! People stopped shaking hands and hugging. Vaccines allowed our world to return to a semblance of normalcy. How quickly people forget.

Thank you God for allowing the scientists to discover the COVID vaccine! Once again you have 'saved' me in this world, and I have hope and faith in the world to come as well.

I wish you all the best in your conspiracy world and only hope it doesn't come to injure you through ignorance.

 

[fides' Jack]

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

Well, you lost me when you said my salvation depends upon whether or not I get a vaccine - that is what you were saying, right?

Not quite.  I'm saying it could depend on the next one, and I was alluding to the mark of the beast prophesied in the book of Revelation.

I'm not saying the next one is that, I'm just saying it could be.  This one had some of the characteristics of the mark.

All Catholics in good conscience must admit that this is possible.

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

And no, I do not agree that COVID vaccines are any worse in terms of side effects than any other vaccine.

Then you are ignoring the government data just as much as I am.

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

Because of the vaccines, I didn't die or end up on a respirator and am now recovered. 

You have no evidence of that, nor can it be proven.  Are you saying you know for sure that if you did not have the "vaccines" that you definitely would've died or ended up on a respirator?  Do you have 2 or more comorbidities?  If not, then you would have no reason to think that.

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

Because of my upbringing, I trust vaccines, and have only benefited from them.

I get it - the vaccine propaganda has been pushed for a century now.  A lot of us grew up trusting vaccines and believing, because we've been told as much a million times, that we've only benefited from them.  But there's a preponderance of evidence suggesting that many of the diseases you mentioned, like polio, were on their way out before the introduction of the vaccines.  You also grew up in a time when cleanliness and healthy living and easy access to clean water and much more sanitary conditions was just starting to take off.  At this point it's easier for me to believe that those things had a much greater impact on our general health, at least in this country, than vaccines.  

Again, I'm not 100% against vaccines.  I believe they can and should be used where appropriate.

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

the millions who died of COVID before the vaccine was produced

I don't believe that.  There far too much reason not to believe it.  I believe, at least in the US, the actual death rate is closer to 5% of what the government has told you.  And that's not millions.  At that point it's closer to a flu virus.  The flu kills millions of people, too, across the world.  

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

only a few years ago the hospitals were full of people on respirators and there were refrigeration trucks full of dead bodies

And yet, somehow, there wasn't a significant increase of excess mortality until after the covid shots came out.  How is that possible?

I do think a lot of people died before the shots came out.  They are now starting to admit that the medicines that basically became outlawed could have saved many lives.  It turns out Remdesivir is more dangerous than the other medications.  So yeah, people died, by bad policies and bad medicine.  

I find it hard to believe that people can forget the actions of the state governors who sent sick people to stay in the nursing homes, where we would expect to see the most death.

I find it hard to believe that people can forget that the bishops around the world shut down Mass.  In times of emergency, we need more sacraments, not less.

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

We were all terrified to accept packages into our homes without sanitising first!

No, we weren't all terrified.  The government made you terrified.  Not everyone was.  I certainly wasn't.  I had no reason to be.  If you are elderly and have multiple comorbidities, then maybe your fear was justified.  I have no way to judge that.

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

People stopped shaking hands and hugging.

They shouldn't have.  Let's not stop being human.  Let's not stop being Christian and charitable out of fear. (Especially false fear)

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

Vaccines allowed our world to return to a semblance of normalcy.

"Vaccines" didn't do that. 

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

How quickly people forget.

I never forgot.  I've been harping on it since day one, as is evidenced by this thread.  I'm still harping on it.  People on here, including yourself, are getting tired of me harping on it.  But don't take that to mean that I've forgotten.  I haven't forgotten any of it.  I never believed it to begin with.

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

Thank you God for allowing the scientists to discover the COVID vaccine!

That's part of my problem.  They didn't "discover" the covid "vaccines".  They made them.  If they had been discovered, they would be considered medicine or drugs, not vaccines, and I'd probably trust them more than I do now.

15 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

I wish you all the best in your conspiracy world and only hope it doesn't come to injure you through ignorance.

I appreciate your well-wishes.  I truly do.  I also wish you all the best, and I hope that your denial of truth doesn't come to injure you.

My main point is this: the mark of the beast is very likely going to come from the scientists.  If you trust in science and in the scientists more than you do in faith and in God, then you will surely lose your soul.  I hope that's not the case now, and I hope that's not the case when it matters the most.

[cruciatacara]

8 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

 

My main point is this: the mark of the beast is very likely going to come from the scientists.  If you trust in science and in the scientists more than you do in faith and in God, then you will surely lose your soul.  I hope that's not the case now, and I hope that's not the case when it matters the most.

I trust in science and I trust in God. I trust that God has revealed things to us through science that we couldn't understand hundreds of years ago. I believe that God and science work hand in hand and am delighted to live at a time when science has made possible so many wonderful things, by God's grace.

 

[fides' Jack]

17 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

I trust in science and I trust in God. I trust that God has revealed things to us through science that we couldn't understand hundreds of years ago. I believe that God and science work hand in hand and am delighted to live at a time when science has made possible so many wonderful things, by God's grace.

 

I agree with this.

I would even say that the pursuit of science is the search for knowledge and understanding about the universe that God created.  If God is Truth, then science is the pursuit of God in the universe.

"I'm not against [science].  I'm against the men who deify it at the expense of human truth." - Contact, Carl Sagan

[little2add]

12/27/22

BTW: 

Beijing will begin distributing Pfizer's Covid-19 drug Paxlovid to the city's community health centers in the coming days, state media reported Monday.

The report comes as the city grapples with an unprecedented wave of infections that has severely strained its hospitals and emptied pharmacy shelves.

 China News Service

[little2add]

 

 

[fides' Jack]

Given that, by June 2022, 87% of China was fully vaccinated, this is very telling.  Thanks for sharing.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279024/china-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-rate/

Safe and effective...

[little2add]

 

[fides' Jack]