fides' Jack's Mega Anti-Vax Thread

[fides' Jack]

Means:  

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/23/bill-gates-turns-10-billion-into-200-billion-worth-of-economic-benefit.html

https://www.modernatx.com/ecosystem/strategic-collaborators/foundations-advancing-mrna-science-and-research

Bill Gates has directly funded a number of vaccines and vaccine manufacturers and made unimaginable monetary profit doing so.  He has directly funded at least the Moderna vaccine for the Wuhan virus.

Motive: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BobKXkrt8M

Bill Gates wants to use vaccines specifically to depopulate the world and has said so publicly several times.

Opportunity: 

The entire world is experiencing a pandemic, or at least perceives itself to be experiencing a pandemic.  Fear is everywhere.  Governments are pushing haphazardly for vaccines to save lives.  Vaccines have been developed using relatively new technology, so new that they've never been approved for widespread use for a specific vaccine in the US before, and in order to get the vaccine out as fast as possible, they've skipped critical testing steps.  

Repercussions:

None.  

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/02/22/133964322/supreme-court-upholds-liability-shield-for-vaccine-makers

https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analysis/this-law-says-youre-mostly-screwed-if-you-receive-bad-coronavirus-products-vaccines-or-treatments/

[Anastasia]

fides' Jack

Yes, what is happening re: virus looks highly suspicious to me as well. I must say the whole concept of making money on health is not only repugnant and evil to me but also quite new since I grew up in the Soviet Union. We have had plentiful atrocities but we did not that money-driven attitude, characteristic of capitalism. So, when I read on various public Catholic forums the word "Socialist" used as a swearing and a certificate of moral depravity I am quite astonished with the ignorance. 

But back to the topic. Again, being "made in U.S.S.R." I am pro-vaccination or better to say I have never questioned vaccines. However, when the subject of vaccines for the current virus began emerging I felt there was something odd there. That sense kept increasing until I began looking into the sci-docs on those vaccines, how there were developed etc. I deliberately avoided various "antivaxxers" websites, because I do not like unreferenced statements and also because I wanted to be as objective as possible.

You may recall that in another topic you began, about the mark of the beast, I declared that the phenomenon of making NOW the vaccines which utilize the cells of the aborted human embryos while there are alternatives combined the subtle push (or not so subtle, in some cases) of the Church leaders being applied to the faithful, of not to exercise their freedom of a choice between good and evil to be a significant step towards the mark of the beast. Christians are being pushed by their Church into the situation where as they were told they should leave their ability to make a choice aside. Christ gave us freedom but here we apparently do not have a choice.

Because of the reasons outlined in your another topic in detailed I ruled out for myself any vaccine which used "the abortion material" in production. This is why I was quite ok about mRNA vaccines. Yet, when I began looking closely into the process of making them my ears, as we say in Russia, wilted (an idiom). The phrases like "there is no evidence that people with autoimmune diseases should not receive that vaccine - we do not have a data about how our vaccine affect people with autoimmune diseases" conveys the mood quite well. The deeper I dug (again, strictly sci- doc) the worse I felt. Whatever is there I do not believe that the speedy production of those vaccines was driven by a love for human persons. Quite clearly it has been driven by the thirst for profit. I have a very clear sense that those who receive now those vaccines are actually participating in clinical trials without realizing that.

Some time ago I also came across the curios doc on the Research Gate 'HCG Found in WHO Tetanus Vaccine in Kenya Raises Concern in the Developing World' .

Click on "download full text" if "read the full text" does not work. It definitely provides a very good evidence of not so philanthropic motives behind the vaccinations. I would say while vaccination as such is beneficial in many cases it is often being used  by various groups of people to achieve their own agenda. 

I find it interesting that those agendas fall into the category of "good evil - evil good". For example, sterilization of African women as a hidden component of vaccination was no doubts done "out of the best intentions" of the "philanthropes", to reduce poverty in Africa and give to Africans (and to those women) a better life-style.

Note present here violation of a free will and free choice based on lies - a trademark of "good evil - evil good".

Edited January 29, 2021 by Anastasia

[Peace]

First, the vaccine is the antichrist, now Bill Gates created it to destroy mankind.

What's next? Pinky and the Brain are gonna use it to take over the world?

3 minutes ago, Anastasia said:

I must say the whole concept of making money on health is not only repugnant and evil to me but also quite new since I grew up in the Soviet Union. We have had plentiful atrocities but we did not that money-driven attitude, characteristic of capitalism.

There were no greedy people in communist Russia? Well. That is news to me.

[ReasonableFaith]

I am sure many, most or all recognize the false and misleading information presented in the original post.  It may be worth a look:

1) $200 billion in economic benefit doesn’t not equate to ‘unimaginable monetary profit’ for Bill Gates. At one time the Gates Foundation estimated every $1 invested in vaccines resulted in $44 of economic benefit to the community. Evidently this has been reeled in to $1 : $20.  Economic benefit to communities NOT Bill Gates  

Both the CNBC and Moderna links are in reference to a charity, The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which has distributed tens of billions of dollars around the world.  The foundation does have equity positions in at least four vaccine producing companies among many other investments. None of the vaccine manufacturers are in the Top 5 largest holdings of the foundation. There is no evidence the foundation or Bill Gates has an equity position in Moderna (not that it would matter if they did). Neither link provides any evidence indicating Bill Gates’ personal monetary gain.  They simply discuss  the monetary support for vaccine development and distribution provided by the foundation as well as the results of this support.

2) Information for a YouTube video is included.  This video has circulated on websites and medias advancing  conspiracies theories and the anti-vaccination movement for a number of years.  The video is intended to imply the vaccines have some nifarious effect. It is an edited and spliced video produced to take comments out of order and out of context in order to advance the conspiracy that Bill Gates is out to depopulate the world via vaccinations.

3) mRNA vaccine research has been around at least since the late 1980’s.  This may be too much of a ‘new technology’ for some. 

4) The post also claims in the area of repercussions for vaccine producers there is ‘none’ due to liability shields provided by the US Government.  In an effort to address public health concerns a liability shield has been extended.  However, vaccine producers ‘pre-pay’ into a Vaccination Injury Fund by way of an excise tax on every dose.   These funds may be accessed through the Special Vaccine Court.  All of which is discussed in the linked articles from NPR and Crime&Law, A Dan Abrams Production. It appears over $183,000,000.00 was distributed from this fund in 2020.

All the refuting information is easily accessed by persons interested in reality over conspiracies.  Much of the refuting material is actually included in the post.  The rest can be accessed via Google, DuckDuckGo, your favored search engine or any decent library.

This is a good example of how the internet can provide a platform for the advancement of a false narrative by the means of tangentially related but non-supporting ‘facts.’

[fides' Jack]

16 hours ago, Anastasia said:

fides' Jack

Yes, what is happening re: virus looks highly suspicious to me as well. I must say the whole concept of making money on health is not only repugnant and evil to me but also quite new since I grew up in the Soviet Union. We have had plentiful atrocities but we did not that money-driven attitude, characteristic of capitalism. So, when I read on various public Catholic forums the word "Socialist" used as a swearing and a certificate of moral depravity I am quite astonished with the ignorance. 

But back to the topic. Again, being "made in U.S.S.R." I am pro-vaccination or better to say I have never questioned vaccines. However, when the subject of vaccines for the current virus began emerging I felt there was something odd there. That sense kept increasing until I began looking into the sci-docs on those vaccines, how there were developed etc. I deliberately avoided various "antivaxxers" websites, because I do not like unreferenced statements and also because I wanted to be as objective as possible.

You may recall that in another topic you began, about the mark of the beast, I declared that the phenomenon of making NOW the vaccines which utilize the cells of the aborted human embryos while there are alternatives combined the subtle push (or not so subtle, in some cases) of the Church leaders being applied to the faithful, of not to exercise their freedom of a choice between good and evil to be a significant step towards the mark of the beast. Christians are being pushed by their Church into the situation where as they were told they should leave their ability to make a choice aside. Christ gave us freedom but here we apparently do not have a choice.

Because of the reasons outlined in your another topic in detailed I ruled out for myself any vaccine which used "the abortion material" in production. This is why I was quite ok about mRNA vaccines. Yet, when I began looking closely into the process of making them my ears, as we say in Russia, wilted (an idiom). The phrases like "there is no evidence that people with autoimmune diseases should not receive that vaccine - we do not have a data about how our vaccine affect people with autoimmune diseases" conveys the mood quite well. The deeper I dug (again, strictly sci- doc) the worse I felt. Whatever is there I do not believe that the speedy production of those vaccines was driven by a love for human persons. Quite clearly it has been driven by the thirst for profit. I have a very clear sense that those who receive now those vaccines are actually participating in clinical trials without realizing that.

Some time ago I also came across the curios doc on the Research Gate 'HCG Found in WHO Tetanus Vaccine in Kenya Raises Concern in the Developing World' .

Click on "download full text" if "read the full text" does not work. It definitely provides a very good evidence of not so philanthropic motives behind the vaccinations. I would say while vaccination as such is beneficial in many cases it is often being used  by various groups of people to achieve their own agenda. 

I find it interesting that those agendas fall into the category of "good evil - evil good". For example, sterilization of African women as a hidden component of vaccination was no doubts done "out of the best intentions" of the "philanthropes", to reduce poverty in Africa and give to Africans (and to those women) a better life-style.

Note present here violation of a free will and free choice based on lies - a trademark of "good evil - evil good".

If you are still considering the mRNA vaccines, please read this: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/99d35b02-a5cb-41e6-ad80-a070f8a5ee17/SMDwhitepaper.pdf

16 hours ago, Peace said:

First, the vaccine is the antichrist, now Bill Gates created it to destroy mankind.

What's next? Pinky and the Brain are gonna use it to take over the world?

There were no greedy people in communist Russia? Well. That is news to me.

I didn't say the vaccine is the antichrist.  I didn't even say the vaccine is the mark of the beast.  I also didn't say Bill Gates created it, period.

At least here, I just presented facts.  You draw whatever conclusions you want to.

[fides' Jack]

12 hours ago, ReasonableFaith said:

This is a good example of how the internet can provide a platform for the advancement of a false narrative by the means of tangentially related but non-supporting ‘facts.’

Basically, your refutation is that there's no direct evidence that Bill Gates is trying to depopulate the world.  I agree with that statement.

Yes, I consider billions of dollars to be unimaginable.  Maybe that's my limited imagination.  I don't think you can argue that someone in control of billions of dollars of investment money is incapable of putting pressure on vaccine manufacturers to do any number of different things (change processes, hire certain people, etc...).  I'm sure you wouldn't argue that many politicians have been swayed in their positions by those with money.  You think it's not possible for a vaccine manufacturing company to fall into the same trap?  I'm just saying it's possible.  He's given (again through his 'charity') more money to them than probably most countries combined (outside of the USA, I'm sure).

Yes, the videos were edited and spliced to make implications.  Here's one of the exact quotes: "First, we've got population. The world today has 6.8 billion people. That's headed up to about nine billion. Now, if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by, perhaps, 10 or 15 percent. But there, we see an increase of about 1.3. "  He's talking about an increase of CO2 caused by a higher population.  This is one of several points that he's making about ways to reduce CO2.  And clearly he thinks (because he outright said it) that reducing 10-15 percent of the world population via vaccinations is a viable option in the fight against climate change.  In fact, he outright said it, multiple times, in different public venues.  Don't make the mistake of refuting the video based on the conclusions it came to.  That's a fallacy.  Instead, refute the content of the video itself.  (It's not enough to just say it wasn't in context.  You need to provide what the correct context is.  Because if you watch the whole talk, it certainly seems to be what he's suggesting.)

Yes, the technology has been around since the 80s.  But it's never been approved for use against a disease in the US.  And they skipped animal testing last year.  On a technology that's never been approved for use against a disease in the US.  How is that not a concern to every single person in the world???  The answer is simple: the irrational fear of covid-19 itself is greater than the rational fear presented by these vaccines.

According to a number of medical professions, as pointed out in the link I provided to Anastasia, they're not even vaccines - that's a misnomer.  They're more accurately labeled "experimental biological agents". 

Your last point is something I was unaware of (thanks for pointing that out!), but it didn't address my original point.  I said there are no repercussions.  That's still true.  So these companies pre-pay into funds that the government can use to reward victims of the harmful effects of the vaccine.  That's not a repercussion, that's a way to silence voices.  Are you trying to say they're punished for hurting people before they hurt people?  Do they also not get government funding to begin with - especially for covid-19 vaccines?  If so, then at best, it's a wash.  And since my point was regarding repercussions to Bill Gates specifically, it's a moot point.  

Along those same lines, though, it's a perfect setup for Billy: he can put any amount of unofficial pressure on these vaccines companies, but since his official ties are through a "charitable organization", there is zero chance of any kind of legal repercussion coming back to bite him.

 

The best you can argue is that we don't know for sure, but that it's possible (even if very remote).  And the best I can argue is that I don't know for sure, but it's possible.  It's uncertain.  And that's all I'm saying.

Edited January 29, 2021 by fides' Jack
Grammar

[ReasonableFaith]

This thread now contains a link to a dubious white paper.

The paper was published by America’s Frontline Doctors. This group is well known for advancing its conspiratorial beliefs and pseudo-science. The group has little to no experience in the area in which they chose to publish. 

In an interesting turn of events the paper elicits race mongering to gin up fears over the vaccine. 

Members cited in the white paper include doctors under investigation by medical boards, doctors holding thoroughly discredited medical opinions, doctors fired by their employers for advancing conspiracies and pseudo-science publicly, and at least one charged with multiple crimes. 
 

The founder of the group, Dr Simone Gold, has been charged with no less than three crimes in connection with the events occurring 1/6/21 inside the US Capital Building. 

Information concerning the credibility of this group is easily available to any person interested in reality over conspiracies. 

[fides' Jack]

 

6 minutes ago, ReasonableFaith said:

This thread now contains a link to a dubious white paper.

The paper was published by America’s Frontline Doctors. This group is well known for advancing its conspiratorial beliefs and pseudo-science. The group has little to no experience in the area in which they chose to publish. 

In an interesting turn of events the paper elicits race mongering to gin up fears over the vaccine. 

Members cited in the white paper include doctors under investigation by medical boards, doctors holding thoroughly discredited medical opinions, doctors fired by their employers for advancing conspiracies and pseudo-science publicly, and at least one charged with multiple crimes. 
 

The founder of the group, Dr Simone Gold, has been charged with no less than three crimes in connection with the events occurring 1/6/21 inside the US Capital Building. 

Information concerning the credibility of this group is easily available to any person interested in reality over conspiracies. 

Several ad hominem attacks here.  No real argument.

7 minutes ago, ReasonableFaith said:

Members cited in the white paper include doctors under investigation by medical boards, doctors holding thoroughly discredited medical opinions, doctors fired by their employers for advancing conspiracies and pseudo-science publicly, and at least one charged with multiple crimes. 

This is particularly interesting, because it proves another of my points - real scientists of a number of different fields, including medical doctors, are losing their jobs and their livelihoods because of their opinions.  

That in itself proves that the other side is not driven by real science.  Real science doesn't destroy dissenting voices.  

[Anastasia]

8 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

If you are still considering the mRNA vaccines, please read this:

Thank you, I will have a look although I ruled out for my self mRNA vaccines because of what I read before. 

By the way, I find it quite symptomatic the fact that after I provided here the link to a scientific paper that addressed the effective sterilization of African women under the cover of being vaccinated against tetanus and there was no comment from those pro-covid vaccines. When several months ago I came across that paper by a pure chance and told a scientist (in a different field) about it he did not believe me saying it is just a "paranoia" of some strange people preoccupied with conspiracies. I sent him the link and he was stunned and said "it is pure evil". It stunned us both because we are both burdened by the knowledge about the experiments conducted on Gypsy women in Ravensbruck that targeted the most efficient way of sterilization of the "inferior peoples". But, if in the last century it was done in a  straightforward way (the women were told that if they agree to be sterilized they will be released from the concentration camp - but they were exterminated nevertheless) nowadays it is done under the cover of "doing good" to some "retarded" peoples.

It seems to me that this grave fact of covert sterilization of a huge number of unsuspected women in the Third World is good enough, for a rational, unbias person to at least be aware of a possibility that there can be something else and not so good, possibly harmful behind very speedy creation of vaccines - especially if the same person/people are connected with the sterilization of African women and with a current vaccination. It does not mean that someone should subscribe themselves to some conspiracy theory or group of course, I am speaking about the ability to see the whole picture, to actually see the phenomena which does not fit into the nice pic of "good science which will save us all and will never harm anyone" and the politicians who "would never allow any harm to happen".

What I am saying is that the aggressive pro-vaxxers, while blaming anti-vaxxers for irrationality appear to have their own, quite irrational faith which prohibits them to see any oddities in the story of the virus. A fear of pandemic creates an unrestrained faith in a health industry which will provide that saving vaccine; that faith demands to believe that those who are behind a vaccine are selfless and trustworthy; those who challenge this idea threaten the inner world of the believers in a vaccine and thus are "enemies" because they take a hope for salvation away.

[Anastasia]

fides' Jack

Thank you very much for the link. I have just read the paper through and it was helpful. Their references are very sound ( 'Nature Microbiology', 'The Journal of Infectious Diseases' etc.)  so I took a time to read some of them as well, for the purpose of forming my own opinion.

PS Funnily enough, when I read here a term "white paper" I thought it meant "written by whites".

Edited January 30, 2021 by Anastasia

[fides' Jack]

I'm glad you brought up that other vaccine, I hadn't heard about that going on, but it paints very much the same picture.  There is already some evil work going on with some vaccines.

I'm very much in the same camp, currently.  I'm not anti-vaccines, but I am anti-covid-19 vaccines.  

On a related note, Merck just came out today to say that they're dropping their vaccine work for covid-19 because "better immunity is found through natural infection".

[ReasonableFaith]

**UPDATE**
 

This thread continues to collect misleading and false information.

Information concerning Merck’s discontinuation of a COVID vaccine project is incomplete and misleading. 

The Reality:

Merck has dropped the project because they have found in their vaccines:

“...the immune responses were inferior to those seen following natural infection AND those reported for other SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 vaccines.”

[MiscarriageSucks]

Is there a phatmass for progressives? Cuz I can't take this republican nonsense anymore. 

[Anastasia]

8 hours ago, ReasonableFaith said:

The Reality:

Merck has dropped the project because they have found in their vaccines:

“...the immune responses were inferior to those seen following natural infection AND those reported for other SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 vaccines.”

You seem to be correct about this one. A brief search says something incomplete info has been circulated on Facebook. 

However, by no means this single fact provides you with the grounds for a rather dramatic statement you chose to begin your message with

8 hours ago, ReasonableFaith said:

This thread continues to collect misleading and false information.

because so far you failed to provide a convincing evidence which would show that the data published in the respected scientific journals and shared on various online sci-platforms have "false and misleading information". If you did I would be first to agree with you, just as I agree with you re: a case with Merck.

Note that you argued well here; you did not say "it is dubious" but provided the evidence, albeit without a link so I have no reason to deny the fact. 

That leads me to a conclusion: you could address other info in this thread just like that, on the level of the content, for example "this vaccine did not have contraceptive component because it was tested there and..." and not on the level of "this is a dubious paper". If you did not do that it probably means you have no means for such an argument, for whatever reason. That means in turn that the info discussed here cannot be called "misleading and false" until it is being proven otherwise by the evidence.

[Peace]

10 hours ago, MiscarriageSucks said:

Is there a phatmass for progressives? Cuz I can't take this republican nonsense anymore. 

Not everyone is MAGA over here friend. Yeah the site leans "Trad" but there is a small Remnant, if you will, of Norvus Ordo loving fish-eaters such as yours truly. Not sure what would qualify one as progressive nowadays but I dunno if there are that many liberal Catholics on the internet. Sometimes I'll run into a few over at Christian Forums.

11 hours ago, ReasonableFaith said:

**UPDATE**
 

This thread continues to collect misleading and false information.

Information concerning Merck’s discontinuation of a COVID vaccine project is incomplete and misleading. 

The Reality:

Merck has dropped the project because they have found in their vaccines:

“...the immune responses were inferior to those seen following natural infection AND those reported for other SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 vaccines.”

You are really fighting the good fight on this one aren't you?

I don't think you need to save the internet from the folly of the original post. Most people can see it for what it is . . .