Jägerstätter, Schneider, Vaccines, and Us

[fides' Jack]

https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/bl-franz-jagerstatter-model-for-covid-vaccine-conscientious-objectors/?utm_source=top_news&utm_campaign=usa

Blessed Jägerstätter, pray for us!

[hakutaku]

This article is right.  While Catholic leadership has sometimes been on the right side of history (i.e. resisting the Nazis, promoting vaccines), the local churches have not (i.e. promoting Nazism and spreading lies about health care.)

I think the vaccine is just another example of religion making people more hostile to natural sciences.  Obviously the Catholic leadership isn't hostile to science, but as this article so clearly lays out, the leadership's position is frequently ignored or outright rejected by the laity or lower church authorities. 

This is what makes religion dangerous to society.  While enlightened and well educated religious leadership can understand the balance between social and religious interests, the non-elites cannot.  This inability to balance priorities frequently leads to socially harmful extremism among local religious groups.

Franz's friends failed to recognize how deeply evil Naziism was, and weighted social cohesion too strongly in their decision making. Canadian churches justified the harm they were doing to native societies in their religious zeal.  Similarly, anti-vaxxers fail to realize that their getting a vaccine has no causal link to abortion, and so are excessively weighting their religious interests while harming those around them. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by hakutaku

[fides' Jack]

3 hours ago, hakutaku said:

Franz's friends failed to recognize how deeply evil Naziism was, and weighted social cohesion too strongly in their decision making.

And yet, we're following in the footsteps of Naziism, to a scary degree now, and still most people fail to recognize how deeply evil it is.  History will repeat itself.

3 hours ago, hakutaku said:

Similarly, anti-vaxxers fail to realize that their getting a vaccine has no causal link to abortion

For the record, I'm not anti-vaccines.  I've been vaccinated with all the standard stuff, and my kids have been vaccinated with all the standard stuff.

I'm anti-covid-vaccines.

And regardless of the degree of the link to abortion, it still has a link to abortion, which makes it immoral, according to the pope and the bishops.  But you're an atheist, so that argument won't sway you...

4 hours ago, hakutaku said:

and so are excessively weighting their religious interests while harming those around them. 

And that is the lie that will lead to the greatest persecution in the history of the world, coming soon to a government near you. 

My not getting a vaccine does not affect those who do get a vaccine.  Vaccines MUST be entirely voluntary.  If you want to believe that these shots protect you, go ahead and get it.  My body, my choice.

4 hours ago, hakutaku said:

While enlightened and well educated religious leadership can understand the balance between social and religious interests, the non-elites cannot.

Oh, I see.  So lower-class people are stupid.  Ok.  

[KnightofChrist]

Having received the vaccine I still find the term 'antivaxer' to be derogatory and dehumanizing. Especially if referring to one that has received other vaccines save for ones against Covid-19.

 

 

[hakutaku]

4 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

which makes it immoral, according to the pope

Literally the pope:

Quote

Today, at this time of darkness and uncertainty because of the pandemic, there appear different lights of hope, such as the discovery of vaccines.

It’s an ethical choice, because you are playing with health, life, but you are also playing with the lives of others... I’ve signed up [to be vaccinated]. One must do it.

--Pope Francis

Why are you literally lying about what the pope says?  Why are you contradicting him by saying

11 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

My not getting a vaccine does not affect those who do get a vaccine. 

You yourself posted the UK stats showing there are breakthrough cases among the vaccinated, so it is not true you aren't affecting the vaccinated.  Did you forget, or are you just ignoring the facts staring you in the face?

16 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Oh, I see.  So lower-class people are stupid.  Ok.  

I was talking about uneducated non-leaders.  Your conclusion is only justified if the church makes all its upper-class members into leaders.  Does it?

 

 

6 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Having received the vaccine I still find the term 'antivaxer' to be derogatory and dehumanizing. Especially if referring to one that has received other vaccines save for ones against Covid-19.

How about "Cafeteria Vaxxer" after the term for Catholics who think they can unilaterally decide which church teachings are valid.

[fides' Jack]

2 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

Literally the pope:

Quote

Today, at this time of darkness and uncertainty because of the pandemic, there appear different lights of hope, such as the discovery of vaccines.

It’s an ethical choice, because you are playing with health, life, but you are also playing with the lives of others... I’ve signed up [to be vaccinated]. One must do it.

--Pope Francis

Why are you literally lying about what the pope says?  Why are you contradicting him by saying

This is the pope's official position (and not an off-hand remark):

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20201221_nota-vaccini-anticovid_en.html

Quote

The Sovereign Pontiff Francis, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on 17 December 2020, examined the present Note and ordered its publication

 

3 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

You yourself posted the UK stats showing there are breakthrough cases among the vaccinated, so it is not true you aren't affecting the vaccinated.  Did you forget, or are you just ignoring the facts staring you in the face?

My comment was regarding my decision to not get vaccinated.  Clearly if there are breakthrough cases among the vaccinated, and the vaccinated can still spread it just as easily (hence the latest push for masks again), it makes no difference whether or not I am vaccinated, to other people.  I might still affect them, but my decision to get the shot or not makes no difference.

5 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

I was talking about uneducated non-leaders.  Your conclusion is only justified if the church makes all its upper-class members into leaders.  Does it?

Depends on how you define "class".  You seem to define it by the "educated" (read: indoctrinated) vs the "uneducated".  Still a class system.

[KnightofChrist]

10 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

How about "Cafeteria Vaxxer" after the term for Catholics who think they can unilaterally decide which church teachings are valid.

Whattaboutism. 

[hakutaku]

4 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Clearly if there are breakthrough cases among the vaccinated, and the vaccinated can still spread it just as easily (hence the latest push for masks again), it makes no difference whether or not I am vaccinated, to other people. 

The same UK data shows that un-vaccinated people catch (and therefore spread) COVID more readily.  So it does matter, because you are choosing to be more susceptible to the disease.  As the pope pointed out in his offhand remarks.
 

I see the pope's official position is, from your link:

Quote

all vaccinations recognized as clinically safe and effective can be used in good conscience with the certain knowledge that the use of such vaccines does not constitute formal cooperation with the abortion from which the cells used in production of the vaccines derive.

 

 

6 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Depends on how you define "class".

I didn't use the word class at all.  You did.  It is a weaselly thing to do, trying to saddle me with the baggage of the term "class" when it isn't relevant to the discussion.  I was referring specifically to hierarchical authority and educational levels.

7 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Whattaboutism. 

??? 

You didn't like a term, so I suggested a new one based on a term familiar to Catholics.

Do you like the new term or not?

[KnightofChrist]

31 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

You didn't like a term, so I suggested a new one based on a term familiar to Catholics.

Do you like the new term or not?

I've never really liked that term either. But that is off topic.

If you don't want to treat people like people I don't know what to tell you. 

[hakutaku]

3 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

If you don't want to treat people like people I don't know what to tell you. 

What about "Cafeteria Vaxxer" is dehumanizing?

Maybe you find all terms used to denote group membership dehumanizing.  Is the term "Catholic" dehumanizing?

Edited August 10, 2021 by hakutaku

[KnightofChrist]

5 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

What about "Cafeteria Vaxxer" is dehumanizing?

In context in it simply because of the rather immature gotcha whattaboutism substitution. 

If you want to convince people to get the vaccine you'll have to treat them like people and do so with respect. 

Neither term is used out of respect. 

[fides' Jack]

5 hours ago, hakutaku said:

Similarly, anti-vaxxers fail to realize that their getting a vaccine has no causal link to abortion

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

And regardless of the degree of the link to abortion, it still has a link to abortion, which makes it immoral, according to the pope and the bishops.

 

1 hour ago, hakutaku said:

I see the pope's official position is, from your link:

Quote

all vaccinations recognized as clinically safe and effective can be used in good conscience with the certain knowledge that the use of such vaccines does not constitute formal cooperation with the abortion from which the cells used in production of the vaccines derive.

 

Right, I never denied that.  I was refuting your claim that getting a vaccine has no causal link to abortion.

They're linked to abortion.  Even the pro-covid-vaccine pope and bishops recognize this, and they also recognize that it makes them immoral.  Then they go further to apply a theory of remoteness to them in order to try to show that they are morally licit. 

But they are still linked to abortion, causally or not.

1 hour ago, hakutaku said:

I didn't use the word class at all.  You did.  It is a weaselly thing to do, trying to saddle me with the baggage of the term "class" when it isn't relevant to the discussion.  I was referring specifically to hierarchical authority and educational levels.

It was weaselly of me to point out the immorality of your position, by using the word "class".  Perhaps so.

Do you want to segregate vaccinated from non-vaccinated?  That's what I'm trying to get at.  You have repeatedly referred to those opposed to covid-19 vaccines as stupid.  

Education does not make a person smarter, or more knowledgeable.  If things are the way they are now in the future, I will do everything I can do dissuade my children from going to college.  At this point, college is about the worst decision anyone can make.

[hakutaku]

31 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

In context in it simply because of the rather immature gotcha whattaboutism substitution. 

Neither term is used out of respect. 

Whataboutism is when someone tries to win an argument by pointing out some misdeeds on the other side.  I wasn't aware we were even having an argument.  You said you didn't like X so I suggested an alternative.

How about you suggest a term that meets your standards.

3 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

I was refuting your claim that getting a vaccine has no causal link to abortion.

You failed to do that because the section I quoted explicitly says I was right.  It says you are not causing an abortion by getting a vaccine.

Edited August 10, 2021 by hakutaku

[hakutaku]

19 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Do you want to segregate vaccinated from non-vaccinated?  That's what I'm trying to get at.  You have repeatedly referred to those opposed to covid-19 vaccines as stupid.  

In much the same way that we segregate smokers from non-smokers, I have no problem with vaccine-based segregation.  I am just as comfortable with schools/workplaces/airlines/etc having a no-smoking policy as I am with them having a no-vaccine-preventable-disease policy.

I see anti-covid-vaxxers as about as intelligent as smokers.

Edited August 10, 2021 by hakutaku

[KnightofChrist]

29 minutes ago, hakutaku said:

Whataboutism is when someone tries to win an argument by pointing out some misdeeds on the other side.  I wasn't aware we were even having an argument.  You said you didn't like X so I suggested an alternative.

Whattaboutism is also saying 'what about' or 'how about' when one is shown to be in error. 

People, is a good term to start with if you indeed care about the individuals you wish to convince.

Your position would not have convinced me to get any covid-19 vaccine. Because it doesn't seem to be based on respect or real concern others. More so how people argue in political debates, which is how many on both sides treat it unfortunately.

-----

As to the actual topic of those persons who've not be vaccinated for covid-19, despite the public perception that most "anti-vaxxers" are a bunch of "white Right-wing maga Trumpers" actual data from the CDC shows it's mostly African Americans and other non-whites who are not vaccinated for covid-19.

Which for civil liberties advocates should be concerning. If vaccine passports and vaccine only is enforced it will effectively be neo-jim crow.

"Among this group, nearly two thirds were White (59%), 10% were Black, 16% were Hispanic, 6% were Asian, 1% were American Indian or Alaska Native, and <1% were Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, while 8% reported multiple or other race. " source: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/