TRADITIONIS CUSTODES

[Nihil Obstat]

5 minutes ago, Peace said:

 

My issue with it is not that I disagree with the idea itself, it's more one of authority I think. I see Vatican 2 as calling for certain changes. Whether or not those changes are a good idea or the best thing for the Church to do I do not know, but that's for the bishops to decide not me, and that is what they appear to have decided at V2.

 

5 minutes ago, Peace said:

 

Yes that has always been an aspect of the wider debate. A question that needs to be well understood and answered is whether or not the authority of the pope and a council is completely unlimited and unconditional. Or are there qualifications there? If so, what are they? How do we understand those subjects where even a pope's authority is constrained? 

Are we ultramontanist? Conciliarist? Is there another, more authentically Catholic standard?

I phrase those all rhetorically because I think that will be all I can say at this time.

[Jaime]

I had a hard time imagining a day when @KnightofChrist and I would ever be on the same side of a debate.  But here we are!  I'm going to confession today because we must be nearing the end of the world.

That this is being done for the sake of unity is a lie. Of course this brings more division.  It's yet one more thing in our world that suggests "wouldn't the world be a better place if". and it's not.  

I don't recall ever attending a TLM.  But the idea that it should be restricted (read "ended") in the name of ANYTHING is just wrong.  As I get older, I become more hesitant to be critical of clergy, vatican officials, the pope, but I cannot see this as a good move at all.

[Peace]

8 minutes ago, Jaime said:

  But the idea that it should be restricted (read "ended") in the name of ANYTHING is just wrong.  As I get older, I become more hesitant to be critical of clergy, vatican officials, the pope, but I cannot see this as a good move at all.

Well it may be "wrong" but that is what the bishops decided in Vatican 2. There is no reform if you are to keep using the exact same liturgy.

[Jaime]

29 minutes ago, Peace said:

Well it may be "wrong" but that is what the bishops decided in Vatican 2. There is no reform if you are to keep using the exact same liturgy.

Vatican II was not about reform.  It was about spiritual renewal

[Peace]

12 minutes ago, Jaime said:

Vatican II was not about reform.

Well Sacrosanctum Concilium states "The Reform of the Sacred Liturgy". That sounds like a reform of the liturgy to me, but perhaps you interpret that differently.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Peace

[qfnol31]

FWIW I think this is being used as a litmus test for Catholics. It is as though the Pope is saying, "You either follow my decision or you are clearly separating yourself from Peter. Those who deny Peter are henceforth cast out of the Church." Additionally, crazily, the Pope manages to be somewhat conciliarist in that he's forcing people to admit the legitimacy of the Second Vatican Council.

Okay, I've oversimplified a bit, but I really think this is aimed at those Catholics who are on the fringes and who are separated from the Church in their hearts, if not visibly. I'm saddened that we might be losing such a wonderful gift in the extraordinary form. I'm disheartened that the Pope (and/or his advisors) thinks it would be better to cast such a wide net. I'm also disheartened because I've known too many people who were caught up in that world. My best friend in high school left the Church because of these fights and the wrong apologetics offered by the Society of St. Pius X. My wife's family twice (!) abandoned clear communion with the Church to a situation that was quasi-schismatic. I think the sort of attitude that sometimes (unnecessarily!) accompanies the communities associated with this form is harmful.

I won't say whether I think this is a good decision or not, in part because I'm not certain. Surely this was a harsh decision. And worst of all, many faithful people were caught in the crossfire/wrongly identified as problematic. It's similar to the situation in my family today: a couple of my children aren't doing what they need to do and unfortunately the others will suffer the consequences as well (e.g., if they go into my daughters' room they'll hurt their feet or we might not go to the pool because certain work needs to be completed before we can go).

I trust that God guides his Church, even in difficult times. The Church has weathered far worse before (Iconoclasm!) and survived. I hope/trust she'll survive now.

In the end I must recognize that the Pope has the authority to do what he's done and I must in turn submit to it. I see that in the past decisions I wouldn't have chosen have brought about good, and maybe some good will come from this. I also hope that those who are in this situation will be able to endure in faith and charity, and thus continue build up the Church through their witness to what is true, good, and beautiful.

But yeah, this document was rough.

[Mercedes]

On 7/20/2021 at 5:26 AM, Jaime said:

Vatican II was not about reform.  It was about spiritual renewal

It was commonly described within the Council as an aggiornamento ie. bringing up to date.

[Peace]

Some young folks at my parish just started an online petition to "inform" the bishop that he can invoke Canon 87 to ignore the MP. I got people trying to convince me that the MP is inconsistent with Quo Primum.

Like the bishop is really gonna be educated by a 22 year old's interpretation of canon law?

It's starting to get ridiculous.

[KnightofChrist]

Bishop Paprocki, a canonist, has invoked Canon Law 87 for the spiritual good of his flock. 

 

 

 

 

 

[KnightofChrist]

For the record here are parts of a letter by Cardinal Mueller. Source: https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2021/07/19/cardinal-mueller-on-the-new-tlm-restrictions/

=======

"Nobody can turn a blind eye to the fact that even those priests and laypeople who celebrate Mass according to the order of the Missal of St. Paul VI are now being widely decried as traditionalist. The teachings of Vatican II on the uniqueness of redemption in Christ, the full realization of the Church of Christ in the Catholic Church, the inner essence of the Catholic liturgy as adoration of God and mediation of grace, Revelation and its presence in Scripture and Apostolic Tradition, the infallibility of the magisterium, the primacy of the pope, the sacramentality of the Church, the dignity of the priesthood, the holiness and indissolubility of marriage – all these are being heretically denied in open contradiction to Vatican II by a majority of German bishops and lay functionaries (even if disguised under pastoral phrases).

And despite all the apparent enthusiasm they express for Pope Francis, they are flatly denying the authority conferred on him by Christ as the successor of Peter. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s document about the impossibility of legitimizing same-sex and extramarital sexual contacts through a blessing is ridiculed by German (and not only German) bishops, priests, and theologians as merely the opinion of under-qualified curial officials. Here we have a threat to the unity of the Church in revealed faith, reminiscent of the size of the Protestant secession from Rome in the sixteenth century. Given the disproportion between the relatively modest response to the massive attacks on the unity of the church in the German “Synodal Way” (as well as in other pseudo-reforms) and the harsh disciplining of the old ritual minority, the image of the misguided fire brigade comes to mind, which – instead of saving the blazing house – instead first saves the small barn next to it.

Without the slightest empathy, one ignores the religious feelings of the (often young) participants in the Masses according to the Missal John XXIII. (1962) Instead of appreciating the smell of the sheep, the shepherd here hits them hard with his crook. It also seems simply unjust to abolish celebrations of the “old” rite just because it attracts some problematic people: abusus non tollit usum."

Edited July 21, 2021 by KnightofChrist

[Peace]

39 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Bishop Paprocki, a canonist, has invoked Canon Law 87 for the spiritual good of his flock. 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah it's going to be interesting to see how many bishops invoke Canon 87 and to see what the result of that will be.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Peace

[Mercedes]

13 minutes ago, Peace said:

Yeah it's going to be interesting to see how many bishops invoke Canon 87 and to see what the result of that will be.

Yes, how many times can people shoot themselves in the foot??

[Peace]

12 hours ago, Mercedes said:

Yes, how many times can people shoot themselves in the foot??

I dunno. Maybe it won't be a big deal. I'm guessing it'll be something like 98% of bishops get on board with the MP.

The sad part is that I actually have trouble talking with a lot of the YA in my parish about their love for the TLM. Like I'll ask them what is so great about it, and 2 minutes later they'll start telling me about all of the things about the NO that they think is wrong. That whole thing about the "high and mighty" attitude about the TLM being superior to the NO is definitely a real thing I think. It's not all of them who are like that, but its a pretty significant percentage, especially among the young men I think. The tradgirls I know tend to be a little more chill about it, or more respectful of clergical authority I think. But yeah whenever I'm chilling with some of my tradfriends and the topic of liturgy comes up, I'll just exit convo or try to change the topic before the ranting starts.

[KnightofChrist]

7 hours ago, Peace said:

I dunno. Maybe it won't be a big deal. I'm guessing it'll be something like 98% of bishops get on board with the MP.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Today Cardinal Cupich to my surprise stated, "current practices with regard to the 1962 Missal remain in place." 

In time that may change. Who can know now, save God. But thank God, it does seem more bishops than not, are choosing not to cast out the TLM. At least for now. 

 

[Mercedes]

16 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Perhaps, perhaps not. Today Cardinal Cupich to my surprise stated, "current practices with regard to the 1962 Missal remain in place." 

In time that may change. Who can know now, save God. But thank God, it does seem more bishops than not, are choosing not to cast out the TLM. At least for now. 

 

It was never about the TLM itself but the fomenting of anti OF and VII goals.  Where that isn't happening in a TLM group there is no need to restrict it.