TRADITIONIS CUSTODES

[Credo in Deum]

Or it could be the people who are consistently abusing the NO are also the ones complaining about a EF liturgy which is not being abuse because it's rubrics don't allow it, so they insist that this non-abuse liturgy is causing division amongst those who want to continue abusing OF liturgies.  

 

[KnightofChrist]

Do remember, per TC there is no OF or EF. What was the EF is no longer the Law and Prayer of the Church. Benedict XVI taught the two are the same Mass, to prevent rupture in the Church between Pre and Post VII. Francis has thrown that out. 

If the TLM is the same Mass as the NO one cannot be the Law and Prayer of Church, but not the other. If the TLM is no longer the Law and Prayer of the Church then the Law and Prayer of the Church has changed so greatly that it needs to banned her old unchanging beliefs, her old teachings. This cannot be if the Church is the same Church today as she was pre VII.

[Credo in Deum]

For any of you who want to see an OF actually done by what Vat II wanted as having pride of place. 

Looks nothing like the many OF being celebrated based off of what was PERMITTED.

Note just because the Church permits something doesn't make it the ideal or equal to what the Church WANTS. 

 

[KnightofChrist]

For more than a thousand years the ancient Mass was were Heaven and Earth met and Christ came down from the Highest to dwell with His people. Now, that path to Christ Himself is being cut off. 

 

[Peace]

29 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

Or it could be the people who are consistently abusing the NO are also the ones complaining about a EF liturgy which is not being abuse because it's rubrics don't allow it, so they insist that this non-abuse liturgy is causing division amongst those who want to continue abusing OF liturgies. 

That's possible. I really haven't heard many NO folks complaining about the existence of the EF though. Have you? I mean, when like 98% of masses being offered in the US are NO masses, it's not like most NO loving folks have any particular need to seek out and destroy the TLM. But I'll admit that such people could exist. I've been at a trad-leaning parish for most of my Catholic life, so I guess I don't see that side of it.

14 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Now, that path to Christ Himself is being cut off.

Well then, all the more reason to rejoice that our Lord is present at NO Masses.

21 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

For any of you who want to see an OF actually done by what Vat II wanted as having pride of place. 

Looks nothing like the many OF being celebrated based off of what was PERMITTED.

Note just because the Church permits something doesn't make it the ideal or equal to what the Church WANTS.

Well that's a beautiful Mass for sure. I don't think you can say that this is what the Church "wants", though. Latin, Gregorian chant, etc. has pride and place, all other things being considered equal, I think. But that's a very western European cultural expression, and I think V2 makes it fairly clear that using vernacular, different types of music, etc. so that the Mass can be celebrated in cultural forms that are more natural to various communities of faith is also an important goal to be achieved. I don't think its fair to say that in every circumstance, the church would prefer to have the above as the form of the Mass, when there are other considerations to be kept in mind that require a balancing act and a certain degree of flexibility.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Peace

[Credo in Deum]

1 minute ago, Peace said:

That's possible. I really haven't heard many NO folks complaining about the existence of the EF though. Have you? I mean, when like 98% of masses being offered in the US are NO masses, it's not like most NO loving folks have any particular need to seek out and destroy the TLM. But I'll admit that such people could exist. I'm been at a trad-leaning parish for most of my Catholic life, so I guess I don't see that side of it.

You think the criticism and hatred is from the laity? Sorry to say the critism and hatred is actually coming from the curia.  You know, the same curia that's consistently getting outted for child sex abuse, coverups, homosexual acts, rape, and a whole host of other issues. 

 

[Peace]

10 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

You think the criticism and hatred is from the laity? Sorry to say the critism and hatred is actually coming from the curia.  You know, the same curia that's consistently getting outted for child sex abuse, coverups, homosexual acts, rape, and a whole host of other issues. 

 

Oh I see what you are saying now. By "the people" I thought you were referring to lay-people, but you were referring to clergy. Yeah I would agree that the TLM criticisms seem to be more focused among the clergy, much more so than lay-people.

As for the child sex-abuse scandal and what not, I'm not sure what that has to do with this issue, though.

What's the status of the liturgical abuses nowadays? Honestly, I hardly ever see anything in Mass that causes me to think "that is an abuse" or "that is improper" nowadays. I mean, we aren't still having "clown masses" are we? Or is the "abuse" folks refer to nowadays more along the lines of "I don't think music using a guitar should be allowed at Mass" or "I don't like it when people smile during the sign of peace"?

Edited September 9, 2021 by Peace

[Credo in Deum]

2 minutes ago, Peace said:

Oh I see what you are saying now. By "the people" I thought you were referring to lay-people, but you were referring to clergy. Yeah I would agree that the TLM criticisms seem to be more focused among the clergy, much more so than lay-people.

As for the child sex-abuse scandal and what not, I'm not sure what that has to do with this issue, though.

You don't know what the moral character of the curia has to do with the treatment of the liturgy both for OF and EF?  Really? 

Oh boy, Peace. 

 

[Peace]

6 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

You don't know what the moral character of the curia has to do with the treatment of the liturgy both for OF and EF?  Really? 

Oh boy, Peace. 

 

Are you a donatist?

I don't understand the point you wanted to make there, quite honestly. Are you going to explain your point or not?

[fides' Jack]

1 hour ago, Credo in Deum said:

Or it could be the people who are consistently abusing the NO are also the ones complaining about a EF liturgy which is not being abuse because it's rubrics don't allow it, so they insist that this non-abuse liturgy is causing division amongst those who want to continue abusing OF liturgies.  

As Taylor Marshall points out, groups like the FSSP have been bludgeoned over the head again and again and again for decades.  

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

Do remember, per TC there is no OF or EF. What was the EF is no longer the Law and Prayer of the Church. Benedict XVI taught the two are the same Mass, to prevent rupture in the Church between Pre and Post VII. Francis has thrown that out. 

Thanks, I thought of that as I was using those terms.  I used them again out of a lack of something better.  I've known enough OF catholics that I know there's a sense out there that EF catholics use the term "Novus Ordo" with a negative tone.  I avoid it when I can.  Using TLM and NO seems to them to be negative terminology.  Perhaps "Vetus Ordo" vs "Novus Ordo" won't feel quite the same.

1 hour ago, Peace said:

I really haven't heard many NO folks complaining about the existence of the EF though. Have you?

All the time.  Very often from laity - and that often from short-haired women.

And notably from Pope Francis.

[chrysostom]

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

Are you a donatist?

I don't understand the point you wanted to make there, quite honestly. Are you going to explain your point or not?

The group of prelates behaving corruptly are the same sort who treat the TLM badly - is what I gather he is saying.

[Credo in Deum]

9 minutes ago, chrysostom said:

The group of prelates behaving corruptly are the same sort who treat the TLM badly - is what I gather he is saying.

Bingo.

 

Peace seems to be under the impression that corrupt prelates wouldn't hate the liturgy.  That men such as Bernedine, McCormick, and friends they've advanced just loooooooooove the Church and it's Rites.   It's not like such men would ever want to destroy or harm the Church.   Child abuse, cover-ups, raped seminarians, and etc sure but never would such men harm or want to harm the liturgy.

 

That's going too far!!

[Credo in Deum]

McCarrick* 

Fat finger Thursday.

[Peace]

38 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

Bingo.

 

Peace seems to be under the impression that corrupt prelates wouldn't hate the liturgy.  That men such as Bernedine, McCormick, and friends they've advanced just loooooooooove the Church and it's Rites.   It's not like such men would ever want to destroy or harm the Church.   Child abuse, cover-ups, raped seminarians, and etc sure but never would such men harm or want to harm the liturgy.

 

That's going too far!!

Well it ain't like all the holy men of in the Church celebrate the TLM and all the sex-perverts love the NO. You look deep enough I'm sure you'll find plenty of evil among men practicing both forms of the Mass. I mean it ain't like the Church was free of bad priests before Vatican 2.

I do find it kind of odd how the sexual abuse scandal is used to malign the current powers-that-be but when you had the more conservative popes and clergy in power, you didn't see the same folks holding them to the fire over the issue. It does somewhat lead me to believe that the sex-abuse scandal is being used as a political tool of sorts by trads to attack "liberals".

Edited September 9, 2021 by Peace

[Peace]

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

All the time.  Very often from laity - and that often from short-haired women.

Wait a second. Short haired women hate the TLM? I suppose it doesn't exactly vibe too well with the mantilla.

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Peace