TRADITIONIS CUSTODES

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Peace said:

I'm pretty sure Satan is attacking all forms of the Mass

[KnightofChrist]

13 hours ago, Peace said:

No, the spirit is not to ban traditional forms of prayer. Traditionis Custodes allows for the Hail Mary and the St. Michael prayer to be said after Mass. Those are "traditional" forms of prayer accordingly to you, so obviously the spirit of the document is not to ban traditional forms of prayer, since the document allows them.

The highest form of prayer is the Mass. TC over time bans the EF of that form of prayer. The Cardinal has banned other forms of prayer. Both ban traditional forms of prayer.

13 hours ago, Peace said:

And the NO Mass is just as "traditional" as the TLM. It ain't like the apostles and the early Christians were celebrating the TLM last time I checked.

Pope Pius V believed it could be traced back to antiquity, and even in part to the Apostles. The New Order is an 1960s fabrication according to Ratzinger/Benedict XVI.

13 hours ago, Peace said:

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Oh please. If you or anyone else writes something I disagree with I am going to say something about it.

You already know that.

I know I have had to repeatedly defend myself personally, namely the fact I am Catholic, against your personal and dishonorable attacks against me. I'm done with that completely and utterly finished.

I've placed you on ignore, I am sorry, had you only been less of an wide behind we could have had interesting discussions. 

[Peace]

On 8/29/2021 at 5:45 AM, KnightofChrist said:

The highest form of prayer is the Mass. TC over time bans the EF of that form of prayer. The Cardinal has banned other forms of prayer. Both ban traditional forms of prayer.

OK. So they share a similarity in your view. That does not mean that the spirit or the intention of TC is to ban traditional forms of prayer, which are still allowed by TC.

On 8/29/2021 at 5:45 AM, KnightofChrist said:

Pope Pius V believed it could be traced back to antiquity, and even in part to the Apostles. The New Order is an 1960s fabrication according to Ratzinger/Benedict XVI.

Lots of people believe all sorts of things at various points during their lives.

On 8/29/2021 at 5:45 AM, KnightofChrist said:

I know I have had to repeatedly defend myself personally, namely the fact I am Catholic, against your personal and dishonorable attacks against me. I'm done with that completely and utterly finished.

I've placed you on ignore, I am sorry, had you only been less of an wide behind we could have had interesting discussions. 

First of all, my criticisms that your, @fides' Jack and many other Trads approaches to Church authority is fundamentally a Protestant approach stands. Both of you are incorrect there and consistently repeat the same arguments against the Church that are made by Protestants. If you don't like that, too bad.

Secondly, I could not care less that you have placed me on ignore. As I wrote, when you write something that is incorrect or something that I disagree with, I will continue to correct it. Whether you respond to it or not is irrelevant to me.

Have a nice day.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Peace

[fides' Jack]

On 9/1/2021 at 8:19 AM, Peace said:

First of all, my criticisms that your, @fides' Jack and many other Trads approaches to Church authority is fundamentally a Protestant approach stands. Both of you are incorrect there and consistently repeat the same arguments against the Church that are made by Protestants. If you don't like that, too bad.

This is a false statement.

I have not seen Knight of Christ argue against the Church, and I certainly haven't argued against the Church.  The pope is not the Church, he is the servant of the Church, and he is not immune from heresy.

But you go ahead and throw false accusations.

[Norseman82]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:49 PM, KnightofChrist said:

In the spirit of Traditionis Custodes, Cardinal Cupich has banned the Hail Mary and prayer to Saint Michael after Mass.

They may pray in silence as individuals but not in unity aloud as one body.

Source: https://wdtprs.com/2021/08/video-priest-announces-he-and-people-have-been-forbidden-to-say-st-michael-prayer-and-hail-mary-after-mass/

It may just apply to the particular parish or priest.  I'm in Chicago, and I was at my own parish and another parish since this was announced, and both times the St. Michael prayer was recited (led by the priest).  

[Peace]

18 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

This is a false statement.

I have not seen Knight of Christ argue against the Church, and I certainly haven't argued against the Church.  The pope is not the Church, he is the servant of the Church, and he is not immune from heresy.

But you go ahead and throw false accusations.

Oh please. I meant made arguments against the authority of the living Magisterium, which both of you have frequently made.

As for the pope not being immune from heresy - there are arguably only 1 or 2 instances in the 2000 year history of the church where that may have happened, and trust me if there were more than that I'm sure you'd have loved to bring it to my attention by now. Ya'll take those 1 or 2 instances and use it as a carte blanche to substitute your own judgment for those of the living Magisterium. And then you whine and complain "Woe is me, I've never said a bad word about the Pope in my life." after insinuating for years that he is a heretic and that you know the truth better than he does. I don't buy that Jazz. You already know that.

[KnightofChrist]

21 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

This is a false statement.

I have not seen Knight of Christ argue against the Church, and I certainly haven't argued against the Church.  The pope is not the Church, he is the servant of the Church, and he is not immune from heresy.

But you go ahead and throw false accusations.

Thank you, but it is not worth the time. Life is too short.

Love him, pray for him, respect and honor him, but I recommend doing so in silence. 

[Peace]

28 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

 but I recommend doing so in silence. 

Silence and prayer in response to one's critics?  Well you are learning from Pope Francis I see. It's a good start.

[Nihil Obstat]

13 hours ago, Peace said:

Silence and prayer in response to one's critics?  Well you are learning from Pope Francis I see. It's a good start.

I mean, Francis does more than his share of name-calling too. ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯

[fides' Jack]

On 9/5/2021 at 4:16 PM, Peace said:

Oh please. I meant made arguments against the authority of the living Magisterium, which both of you have frequently made.

As for the pope not being immune from heresy - there are arguably only 1 or 2 instances in the 2000 year history of the church where that may have happened, and trust me if there were more than that I'm sure you'd have loved to bring it to my attention by now. Ya'll take those 1 or 2 instances and use it as a carte blanche to substitute your own judgment for those of the living Magisterium. And then you whine and complain "Woe is me, I've never said a bad word about the Pope in my life." after insinuating for years that he is a heretic and that you know the truth better than he does. I don't buy that Jazz. You already know that.

I haven't researched the times in the past that popes have committed heresy, nor do I intend to.  Knight of Christ brought up some examples, I believe, but I didn't pay much attention, because it's not important.  What's important for the sake of this argument is the hypothetical.

Divine, Marian, and saints prophecies over the last 200 years have made it clear that in the end times the highest levels of the living magisterium would be promoting heresy, and that we would be charged with adhering to established Church doctrine, or we would lose our souls.

Now, you're not obliged to believe that, as it falls under "private revelation".  Personally, I believe in those prophecies, many of which have also been approved by the highest levels of the living magisterium.

You are obliged to believe in Sacred Scripture, which tells us that in the end times even the elect will be deceived with false teachings, and also teaches us to hold fast to tradition.

So we know not only that it is possible, but that it will eventually happen.  

You accuse us of substituting our own judgment (which is not true), because you personally, and erroneously, believe that one should follow the pope in any and all circumstances, even in matters of heresy, because the Church will find Her way, eventually. 

[KnightofChrist]

On 9/5/2021 at 3:56 PM, Norseman82 said:

It may just apply to the particular parish or priest.  I'm in Chicago, and I was at my own parish and another parish since this was announced, and both times the St. Michael prayer was recited (led by the priest).  

Likely. But if the oldest highest form of prayer can be banned any prayer can be banned. 

[Peace]

14 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

I haven't researched the times in the past that popes have committed heresy, nor do I intend to.  Knight of Christ brought up some examples, I believe, but I didn't pay much attention, because it's not important.  What's important for the sake of this argument is the hypothetical.

What hypothetical exactly? That the pope becomes the antichrist?

14 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

Divine, Marian, and saints prophecies over the last 200 years have made it clear that in the end times the highest levels of the living magisterium would be promoting heresy, and that we would be charged with adhering to established Church doctrine, or we would lose our souls.

Now, you're not obliged to believe that, as it falls under "private revelation".  Personally, I believe in those prophecies, many of which have also been approved by the highest levels of the living magisterium.

Well as you note we are not bound by them, but they are worth discussing I think. Exactly what private revelations are you referring to?

I googled this a bit. The main thing I found with respect to that was the claim by certain Rad Trads that Mary prophesied at La Salette France that "Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the antichrist." Are you talking about that, or another prophecy?

For one, even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that St. Mary did in-fact state "Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the antichrist," it hardly concludes from this statement that the Pope will become a heretic. One can just as easily read this statement to mean that the people of Rome will fail in their faith and that the antichrist will arrive there and persecute the church including the pope, who maintains the faith. The statement says "Rome will lose the faith". It doesn't say "The pope will lose the faith."

And that interpretation is certainly supported if we look at the specific content of some of those purported prophesies:

https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/952-will-rome-lose-the-faith-la-salette-revisited
 

Quote

Melanie’s Secret: Secret which the Blessed Virgin gave me on the Mountain of La Salette on September 19, 1846

Mélanie, I will say something to you which you will not say to anybody:

The time of the God's wrath has arrived! If, when you say to the people what I have said to you so far, and what I will still ask you to say, if, after that, they do not convert, (if they do not do penance, and they do not cease working on Sunday, and if they continue to blaspheme the Holy Name of God), in a word, if the face of the earth does not change, God will be avenged against the people ungrateful and slave of the demon. My Son will make his power manifest! Paris, this city soiled by all kinds of crimes, will perish infallibly. Marseilles will be destroyed in a little time. When these things arrive, the disorder will be complete on the earth, the world will be given up to its impious passions.

The pope will be persecuted from all sides, they will shoot at him, they will want to put him to death, but no one will be able to do it, the Vicar of God will triumph again this time. The priests and the Sisters, and the true servants of my Son will be persecuted, and several will die for the faith of Jesus-Christ. A famine will reign at the same time. After all these will have arrived, many will recognize the hand of God on them, they will convert, and do penance for their sins. . .

 

Now you tell me, does "The pope will be persecuted from all sides, they will shoot at him, they will want to put him to death, but no one will be able to do it"  sound like a prophesy of the Pope becoming a heretic? Does "The priests and sisters will be persecuted and several will die for the faith" sound like the living Magisterium leading the faithful into error, to you?

So at least from what I have seen what you have asserted is more rad-trad folklore.

But if you have anything specific that backs up your assertions please feel free to post them up.

14 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

You are obliged to believe in Sacred Scripture, which tells us that in the end times even the elect will be deceived with false teachings, and also teaches us to hold fast to tradition.

So we know not only that it is possible, but that it will eventually happen.  

First, Sacred Scripture does not teach that the elect will be deceived, and it certainly does not teach that the pope and the bishops will fall into material heresy and lead the people away from the faith.

I assume here you are referring to Matthew 24 (or the corresponding passages in the other gospels).

Let's take a look at it:

Quote

[21] For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. [22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. [23] Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. [24] For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. [25] Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.

The text teaches that "false Christs" and "false prophets" will arise, and perform "great signs and wonders" in an attempt to deceive "even the elect" (that is, not only to deceive non-believers but also elect Christians themselves).

But the text does not strictly teach that the elect will actually be deceived. The words "if possible" in the text strongly suggest an interpretation more along the lines of "the false prophets will even attempt to deceive the elect, if such a thing were possible".

And there is absolutely nothing in those Bible verses about the entire leadership of the Church becoming corrupted and leading the faithful away from the truth.

And let's take a look at what the Catechism has to say about the those times:

Quote

 

The Church's ultimate trial

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

 

Here, the religious deception that occurs during the final tribulation comes from the Antichrist. But there is nothing in the Catechism about the Pope becoming a heretic, the pope becoming the anti-Christ, or the bishops of the Church falling into heresy and lay-Catholics having to disobey the living Magisterium to uphold the "true faith". This idea, to the exent that anyone holds it, is SSPX folklore. You do not see that anywhere in Sacred Scripture, and the Church certainly does not teach anything remotely similar to that.

14 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

You accuse us of substituting our own judgment (which is not true), because you personally, and erroneously, believe that one should follow the pope in any and all circumstances, even in matters of heresy, because the Church will find Her way, eventually. 

Well I would not say "any and all circumstances." I already gave you the hypothetical example where the Pope (God forbid) says something like "It is OK to murder children." It would offend my conscience just as it would yours, and I would not follow the Pope if he said such a thing. I would resist him just as you would. My position is that a Christian can refuse to follow the pope or bishops if his conscience absolutely cannot allow it. But I think this concept is abused to the point whereas many people (such as yourself) effectively take the position that "If the pope agrees with my conclusions, then I will follow him. If the pope disagrees with my conclusions, then I will not follow him" regardless of the issue or circumstance.

The basic argument that you are making is that the Popes and bishops have or will fall into heresy, that they have or will become the anti-Christ, and that the lay-faithful will have to go their own way in opposition to the leadership of the Church . If you go back and read through the history of the Reformation you will see that these are the exact same arguments that Martin Luther and the other reformers made when justifying their break with the Church, and they are the same arguments that many anti-Catholics make today to counter the Church's claims of apostolic succession. And they are made based on your own private-interpretations of Sacred Scripture, private revelations, and so-forth, and are not supported by anything that the Church teaches in her official documents like the councils, catechisms, etc.

You may not like it, but that is Protestantism, pure and simple.

And if we are talking religious leaders leading people away from the faith, doesn't it give you pause that the main group making similar arguments (the schismatic SSPX) are also the very same group that readily encourage Catholic Christians to skip the Mass (unless it is a TLM Mass)?

It doesn't strike you as just a bit odd that the every other group of people who have made the same types of arguments that you have made, have eventually found their way out of the Church?

Edited September 8, 2021 by Peace

[KnightofChrist]

COMMUNIQUÉ of the Superiors-General of the "Ecclesia Dei" Communities [on Traditionis Custodes]

"The mercy of the Lord is upon all flesh."(Sirach 18, 13)

The signatory Institutes want, above all, to reiterate their love for the Church and their fidelity to the Holy Father. This filial love is tinged with great suffering today. We feel suspected, marginalized, banished. However, we do not recognize ourselves in the description given in the accompanying letter of the Motu Proprio Traditionis custodes, of July 16, 2021.

"If we say we have no sin ..." (I John 1, 8)

We do not see ourselves as the "true Church" in any way. On the contrary, we see in the Catholic Church our Mother in whom we find salvation and faith. We are loyally subject to the jurisdiction of the Supreme Pontiff and that of the diocesan bishops, as demonstrated by the good relations in the dioceses (and the functions of Presbyteral Councillor, Archivist, Chancellor, or Official which have been entrusted to our members), and the result of canonical or apostolic visits of recent years. We reaffirm our adherence to the magisterium (including that of Vatican II and what follows), according to the Catholic doctrine of the assent due to it (cf. in particular Lumen Gentium, n ° 25, and Catechism of the Catholic Church , n ° 891 and 892), as evidenced by the numerous studies and doctoral theses carried out by several of us over the past 33 years.

Have any mistakes been made? We are ready, as every Christian is, to ask forgiveness if some excess of language or mistrust of authority may have crept into any of our members. We are ready to convert if party spirit or pride has polluted our hearts.

"Fulfill your vows unto the Most High" (Psalm 49:14)

We beg for a humane, personal, trusting dialogue, far from ideologies or the coldness of administrative decrees. We would like to be able to meet a person who will be for us the face of the Motherhood of the Church. We would like to be able to tell him about the suffering, the tragedies, the sadness of so many lay faithful around the world, but also of priests, men and women religious who gave their lives trusting on the word of Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI.

They were promised that "all measures would be taken to guarantee the identity of their Institutes in the full communion of the Catholic Church"[1]. The first Institutes accepted with gratitude the canonical recognition offered by the Holy See in full attachment to the traditional pedagogies of the faith, particularly in the liturgical field (based on the Memorandum of Understanding of May 5, 1988, between Cardinal Ratzinger and Archbishop Lefebvre). This solemn commitment was expressed in the Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei of July 2, 1988; then in a diversified manner for each Institute, in their decrees of erection and in their constitutions definitively approved. The men and women religious and priests involved in our Institutes have made vows or made commitments according to this specification.

It is in this way that, trusting in the word of the Supreme Pontiff, they gave their lives to Christ to serve the Church. These priests and men and women religious served the Church with dedication and abnegation. Can we deprive them today of what they are committed to? Can we deprive them of what the Church had promised them through the mouth of the Popes?

"Have patience with me!" (Mt 18:29)

Pope Francis, "encourage the Church’s pastors to listen to them with sensitivity and serenity, with a sincere desire to understand their plight and their point of view, in order to help them live better lives and to recognize their proper place in the Church."(Amoris Laetitia, 312). We are eager to entrust the tragedies we are living to a father's heart. We need listening and goodwill, not condemnation without prior dialogue.

The harsh judgment creates a feeling of injustice and produces resentment. Patience softens hearts. We need time.

Today we hear of disciplinary apostolic visits to our Institutes. We ask for fraternal meetings where we can explain who we are and the reasons for our attachment to certain liturgical forms. Above all, we want a truly human and merciful dialogue: "Have patience with me!"

"Circumdata varietate" (Ps 44:10)

On August 13, the Holy Father affirmed that in liturgical matters, “unity is not uniformity but the multifaceted harmony created by the Holy Spirit”[2]. We are eager to make our modest contribution to this harmonious and diverse unity, aware that, as Sacrosanctum Concilium teaches, “the liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; at the same time it is the font from which all her power flows” (SC, n ° 10).

With confidence, we turn first to the bishops of France so that a true dialogue be opened and that a mediator be appointed who will be for us the human face of this dialogue. We must, “avoid judgements which do not take into account the complexity of various situations … It is a matter of reaching out to everyone, of needing to help each person find his or her proper way of participating in the ecclesial community and thus to experience being touched by an 'unmerited, unconditional and gratuitous' mercy.” (Amoris Laetitia, n ° 296-297).

Done at Courtalain (France), August 31, 2021.

Fr. Andrzej Komorowski, Superior-General of the Fraternity of Saint Peter

Msgr. Gilles Wach, Prior General of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest

Fr. Luis Gabriel Barrero Zabaleta, Superior-General of the Institute of the Good Shepherd

Fr. Louis-Marie de Blignières, Superior-General of the Fraternity of Saint Vincent Ferrer

Fr. Gerald Goesche, General Provost of the Institute of Saint Philip Neri

Fr. Antonius Maria Mamsery, Superior-General of the Missionaries of the Holy Cross

Dom Louis-Marie de Geyer d’Orth, Father Abbot of the Abbey of Saint Magdalen of Le Barroux

Fr. Emmanuel-Marie Le Fébure du Bus, Father Abbot of the Canons of the Abbey of Lagrasse

Dom Marc Guillot, Father Abbot of the Abbey of Saint Mary of la Garde

Mother Placide Devillers, Mother Abbess of the Abbey of Our Lady of the Annunciation of Le Barroux

Mother Faustine Bouchard, Prioress of the Canonesses of Azille

Mother Madeleine-Marie, Superior of the Adorers of the Royal Heart of Jesus Sovereign Priest

Edited September 8, 2021 by Ash Wednesday
Formatting issues

[fides' Jack]

2 hours ago, Peace said:

I googled this a bit. The main thing I found with respect to that was the claim by certain Rad Trads that Mary prophesied at La Salette France that "Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the antichrist." Are you talking about that, or another prophecy?

There are actually many, some approved, some as yet not approved.

I may start posting some of the latest ones (all of which are not yet approved because they're so recent).

2 hours ago, Peace said:

I assume here you are referring to Matthew 24 (or the corresponding passages in the other gospels).

You assume incorrectly.  I'm referring to the book of revelation.

[KnightofChrist]

The strike through was not intentional.