When Speculative Theology Goes Wrong

[Hananiah]

[quote]Pope Pius IX
We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life. For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment (no. 7).
On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore)[/quote]
This does contradict the Feeneyite position, but it does not support the position of the majority of the people on this board either.

[quote]"It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord" (no. 7).
On the Church in Austria (Singulari Quidam)[/quote]
This doesn't even contradict the Feeneyite position. I don't think anyone on this board is going to deny that invincible ignorance renders one inculpable for the sin of not joining the Catholic Church. However, the Catholic Church is an absolutely necessary means of salvation, and no one outside of her can be saved regardless of whether or not they are guilty of this sin. Just read the first sentence of the very paragraph you quote.

[Hananiah]

[quote]Contrary to what most “traditional” Catholics say, there is such a thing as authentic ecumenism.[/quote]
This is such an error filled sentence. First I find his patronizing tone offensive. Second I do not believe many traditionalists deny that ecumenism of return is a good idea. Third his interpretation of authentic ecumenism is erroneous as he holds an erroneous view of [i]extra ecclesiam nulla salus[/i].

[quote]In summary, we know that everyone’s salvation – Catholic and non-Catholic – is through the Catholic Church[/quote]
This is where he goes wrong. There is no one who ever has been saved or ever will be saved who was not a Catholic. Baptism in whatever form makes one a member of the Catholic Church. There are no people who are saved outside of the Church, but "though" the Church.

[quote]or as persons who give their life for Christ (Baptism of blood)[/quote]
He really needs to stop exclusively reading post-conciliar documents. "No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, [b]even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ[/b], can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Protestant and Eastern Orthodox martyrs who reject the Catholic Church, invincibly ignorant or not, can not be saved. Baptism by blood applies mainly to martyred catechumenates and others who desire to join the Catholic Church.

[quote]or who would belong to the Catholic Church if they knew it was the one, true Church founded by Jesus Christ (Baptism of desire).[/quote]
This is an extremely fallacious statement. That the only people Lumen Gentium explicitly excluded from salvation were those who knew the Catholic Church to be the true Church of Christ but rejected her anyway (all 12 of them) does not mean that these are the only people ever excluded in any document produced by the Magesterium of the Catholic Church. If he would be so bold as to read other documents he would find that, in addition to such people, the dogma of [i]extra ecclesiam nulla salus[/i] excludes a great deal more. Baptism by desire applies to people who [i]desire[/i] to join the Catholic Church. It does not apply to people who reject her.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Jul 9 2004, 04:23 PM'] The Church has never taught "baptism" of desire. [/quote]
A doctrine does not have to be taught de fide in order for it to be true. The majority of Church Fathers and the pre-conciliar Popes taught baptism by desire.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]There is no one who ever has been saved or ever will be saved who was not a Catholic. Baptism in whatever form makes one a member of the Catholic Church. There are no people who are saved outside of the Church, but "though" the Church.[/quote]

You are having a semantical argument, and you and he are saying the same thing, merely arguing about the words by which they are said. Baptism, whether Sacramental (by water and the spirit) or non-sacramental (blood or desire) makes one a member of the Church, though not a member of the visible body of the Catholic Church. Thus a "non-catholic" can, in fact, be a member of the Church - though not a visible member. Salvation is only found in the Church.


[quote]He really needs to stop exclusively reading post-conciliar documents. "No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."[/quote]

This particular quote is being taken out of context. It was directed towards those individuals who were fully formed, knew the teachings of the Church, and spoke otherwise - namely, heretics. At the time, there was an idea that, though heretics they may be, their actions/dying for faith might save them. The Holy Father explicitly denies this. However, you go too far when you say:

[quote]Protestant and Eastern Orthodox martyrs who reject the Catholic Church, invincibly ignorant or not, can not be saved. Baptism by blood applies mainly to martyred catechumenates and others who desire to join the Catholic Church.[/quote]

The entire principal of invincible ignorance is that, by it, you CAN be saved. Moreover, this quote causes you to fall into contradiction with your later statement that

[quote]This doesn't even contradict the Feeneyite position[/quote]

Feeney is well known for teaching that even a catechumenate who is on his way to be baptised and is killed en route will not attain heaven.

Also:

[quote]These quotes are all irrelevant. The dogma is that baptism has been necessary for salvation since the promulgation of the gospel. These Fathers are talking about men who lived before Christ.[/quote]

I find it very telling that you leave Augustine's quote out. Too difficult to deal with?
St. Augustine was very clear that he considered the souls of the catholic catechumen safe in the eyes of God, and this is most certainly not "before Christ"



On a general note, I would like to point out to everyone that the Traditionalist arguments tend to, as stated in cmom's post, be highly semantical, as well as taking quotes out of the context within which they were (and are) written. Moreover, it is highly telling of such an erroneous theological that it leads one to the inevitable conclusion that the Pope is a heretic. If, as they claim, baptism by blood and desire do not exist, and yet have been [i]infallibly defined[/i] by the Holy Father and Magisterium at the Second Vatican Council, then you are led to two conclusions. First, that the Holy Father and Magisterium are [i]teaching[/i] false doctrines, and second, that as a result of this, they are heretics.

It has been infallibly stated multiple times that no Pope can [i]teach[/i] heresy, and it is a viable opinion that no Pope can [i]believe[/i] heresy.

Thus, the logical conclusion of this erroneous doctrine leads one to a conclusion that is, for a catholic, impossible.

By their fruits they shall be known.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]You've been corrected on this issue before. The Holy Office gave explicit permission to Fr. Feeney and his followers to hold their rigorist position when Fr. Feeney's excommunication was revoked through the good offices of Humberto Cardinal Medeiros. Feeneyism is an opino tolerata.[/quote]
[quote][On baptism of desire]
A doctrine does not have to be taught de fide in order for it to be true. The majority of Church Fathers and the pre-conciliar Popes taught baptism by desire.[/quote]
Feeneyism rejects baptism of desire, yet it is compatible with Catholicism?

[quote][quote]Clement I
"Let us go through all generations and learn that in generation after generation the Master has given a place of repentance for those willing to turn to him. Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying, and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God" (1 Clement, no. 7 [AD 95]).

Justin Martyr
We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos} were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then [b]or who live now according to reason[/b] [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Clement of Alexandria
"Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the law did the Hebrews" (Miscellanies 1:5 [A.D. 208]).[/quote]


These quotes are all irrelevant. The dogma is that baptism has been necessary for salvation since the promulgation of the gospel. These Fathers are talking about men who lived before Christ.[/quote]
Justin Martyr's is relevant (read part in bold), and Augustine's still stands. The others demonstrate the possibility of salvation outside the physical Church, or in this case, the Old Covenant.

[quote][quote]Pope Pius IX
We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life. For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment (no. 7).
On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore) [/quote]


This does contradict the Feeneyite position, but it does not support the position of the majority of the people on this board either.[/quote]
How is this contrary to what the majority of board members believe?

[quote][quote]"It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. [b]On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord[/b]" (no. 7).
On the Church in Austria (Singulari Quidam) [/quote]


This doesn't even contradict the Feeneyite position. I don't think anyone on this board is going to deny that invincible ignorance renders one inculpable for the sin of not joining the Catholic Church. However, the Catholic Church is an absolutely necessary means of salvation, and no one outside of her can be saved regardless of whether or not they are guilty of this sin. Just read the first sentence of the very paragraph you quote.[/quote]
The bold part does contradict Feeneyism, because it teaches that people ignorant of Catholicism will be punished. They claim that if God wants an ignorant person to be saved, he will reveal the Church to them so that they can recieve the sacraments, etc. and that ignorance in one's own fault. A feeneyite says:
[quote]To reiterate: if God knows that John Doe will accept the Truth (whether he's on a desert island or not), God will pre-arrange that the Church be brought to him. On the other hand, if God knows that John Doe is content as he is, and will have nothing to do with the Faith, God is committing no injustice to leave John as he is. St. Alphonsus already explained why so many are ignorant: they don't want to know, so God doesn't reveal Himself to them. They are content as they are, i.e., heaped in sin.
[url="http://www.ihsv.com/areonlycatholicssaved.html"]http://www.ihsv.com/areonlycatholicssaved.html[/url][/quote]
[quote]I don't think anyone on this board is going to deny that invincible ignorance renders one inculpable for the sin of not joining the Catholic Church.[/quote]
Correct, neither do I.
[quote]However, the Catholic Church is an absolutely necessary means of salvation, and no one outside of her can be saved regardless of whether or not they are guilty of this sin. Just read the first sentence of the very paragraph you quote.[/quote]
I agree it is necessary. All who are saved are saved through the Church, whether or not that know about it or are physically present in it. Saying that a person invincibly ignorant of Christ and His Church cannot attain eternal life is against Catholic teaching.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]You've been corrected on this issue before. The Holy Office gave explicit permission to Fr. Feeney and his followers to hold their rigorist position when Fr. Feeney's excommunication was revoked through the good offices of Humberto Cardinal Medeiros. Feeneyism is an opino tolerata.[/quote]
Fr. Feeney's position was [b]condemned[/b] by the Holy Office:
[quote][b]Holy Office, Aug 9, 1949, condemning doctrine of L. Feeney (DS 3870):[/b]
"It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be explicit... but when a man labors under invincible ignorance, God accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to conform his will to the will of God."
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT[/url][/quote]
(Pope Pius XII also condemned his position, and personally checked the English translation.)

His excommunication came later (1953), and it was for disobedience (not his teaching). Hence when the excommunication was lifted, the condemnation of his teaching was not.

Links:
[url="http://bentang.tripod.com/boston.htm"]http://bentang.tripod.com/boston.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT[/url]

Edited July 10, 2004 by thedude

[blovedwolfofgod]

When you said that Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Christians cannot be saved, I felt I should put in a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is about the only thing I can add to the discussion.

"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the seperation those who at present are born into these communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers....All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children ot the Catholic Church. (818)"

Now, Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire, and Baptism by water are all valid baptisms. So the Church regards them as brothers and says they are incorporated into Christ. The only way we can be saved is to be resurrected with Christ. Iranaeus talks about the corruptible being joined to the incorruptible and sharing in it with Him. Protestants are saved as well as the Eastern churches. And you really seemed to have contradicted yourself when you talk about the invincible ignorance and saying infants cant be saved. It seems to me that for a creature that cant stay awake for longer than 6 hours along with not understanding a word we say for a good year or so would be covered under the realm of invincible ignorance. Now, if this justifies us, and the justified(without mortal sin) and the sinless go to heaven, why dont babies go there? If anything (this statement is not in represtation of the Church, but my opinion) they should go to Purgatory to be prepared for the beatific vision.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Jul 9 2004, 04:23 PM'] The Church has never taught "baptism" of desire. [/quote]
no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no

CCC:

1258: "The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This [i]baptism of blood[/i], like the [i]desire for Baptism[/i], brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a scarament."

1259: "For [i]catechumens[/i] who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament."


1261: "As regards [i]children who have died without baptism[/i], the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Inded, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them", allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."

[Apotheoun]

From the Sacred Council of Trent, the Sixth Session, 13 January 1547, [u]The Decree on Justification[/u], chapter 4: "By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, [b][i]or the desire thereof[/i][/b], as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." [Council of Trent, [u]Decree on Justification[/u], chapter 4]

The 1949 letter of the Holy Office clarifies the nature of the desire required, and states that: "In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circumstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (Denzinger, nn. 797, 807). The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. [i]Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, [b]it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member[/b], but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing[/i]. [i] However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; [b]but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire[/b], so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God[/i]." [[u]Letter of the Holy Office to Archbishop Cushing[/u], 8 August 1949]

Salvation is through Christ's Catholic Church alone; so anyone who is saved, is saved through the Catholic Church, even if they are invincibly ignorant of this fact.

Edited July 10, 2004 by Apotheoun

[M.SIGGA]

Is there anything in any Council directed against parents of deceased unbaptised children/babies? Wouldn't it be the fault of the parents or guardians if a baby or child died unbaptised since a baby can't baptise itself? Confused

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 10 2004, 01:53 PM'] From the Sacred Council of Trent, the Sixth Session, 13 January 1547, [u]The Decree on Justification[/u], chapter 4:  "By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, [b][i]or the desire thereof[/i][/b], as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." [Council of Trent, [u]Decree on Justification[/u], chapter 4]

The 1949 letter of the Holy Office clarifies the nature of the desire required, and states that:  "In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circumstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (Denzinger, nn. 797, 807).  The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. [i]Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, [b]it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member[/b], but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing[/i]. [i] However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; [b]but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire[/b], so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God[/i]." [[u]Letter of the Holy Office to Archbishop Cushing[/u], 8 August 1949]

Salvation is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, so anyone who is saved, is saved through the Catholic Church, even if they are invincibly ignorant of this fact. [/quote]
I like it.

[quote]Is there anything in any Council directed against parents of deceased unbaptised children/babies? Wouldn't it be the fault of the parents or guardians if a baby or child died unbaptised since a baby can't baptise itself? Confused[/quote]
Not sure of any council, but here is a priest on the issue:
[quote]Catholic parents who neglect or unreasonably put off for a long time the Baptism of their children commit a mortal sin.
[url="http://www.domestic-church.com/CONTENT.DCC/19990901/SCRMNTL/baptism_one.htm#9"]http://www.domestic-church.com/CONTENT.DCC...ptism_one.htm#9[/url][/quote]
From what I can gather, stillborn infants are in the same boat. Here is another interesting resource:
[url="http://www.domestic-church.com/CONTENT.DCC/19991201/SCRMNTL/blssng_mscrg.htm"]http://www.domestic-church.com/CONTENT.DCC...lssng_mscrg.htm[/url]

Edited July 10, 2004 by thedude

[Hananiah]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 10 2004, 01:49 AM'] This particular quote is being taken out of context. It was directed towards those individuals who were fully formed, knew the teachings of the Church, and spoke otherwise - namely, heretics. [/quote]
It is not being taken out of context at all. It condemns all heretics and schismatics. The Eastern Orthodox had been around for several hundred years and there certainly were lots of invincibly ignorant Eastern Orthodox by then. [i]Unam Sanctam[/i] even singles the Greek Orthodox out by name and says that they are not the sheep of Christ. And if Orthodox martyrs can not be saved, still less can Protestant martyrs be saved.

[quote]The entire principal of invincible ignorance is that, by it, you CAN be saved.[/quote]
Absolutely not. The entire principle of invincible ignorance is that it renders one inculpable for whatever one particular sin one is invincibly ignorant about. In this case it would be the sin of remaining outside the Catholic Church. Invincible ignorance does not save and it does not change the fact that one who remains outside the Church can not be saved.

[quote]Feeney is well known for teaching that even a catechumenate who is on his way to be baptised and is killed en route will not attain heaven.[/quote]
I am well aware of this. But he did not, to my knowledge, deny that invincible ignorance renders one inculpable for the sin of heresy.

[quote]I find it very telling that you leave Augustine's quote out. Too difficult to deal with?[/quote]
Lack of time. I'll deal with it now if you wish.

[quote]"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:4[6] [A.D. 400]).[/quote]
Not even a Feeneyite would object to this.

[quote]"The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics" (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).[/quote]
In this sense (Titus 3:10, formal heretics) I agree that Protestants and Eastern Orthodox are not heretics. I do not believe that Catholics should stop talking to them if they don't convert after two conversations.

[quote]"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body…. All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:28 [39]).[/quote]
A Feenyite might object to this, but I don't.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jul 10 2004, 09:13 AM'] Feeneyism rejects baptism of desire, yet it is compatible with Catholicism? [/quote]
Well, I'd say the Holy Office knows better than you, so yes it is.

[quote]Justin Martyr's is relevant (read part in bold)[/quote]
So it is. It does contradict Feeneyism.

[quote]How is this contrary to what the majority of board members believe?[/quote]
It isn't. But it doesn't support the specifics of your position either. This is a fairly non-controversial statement and I don't think many Catholics except the Feeneyites would disagree with it.

Simple analogy:
Does the statement "we are justified by faith" specifically support Catholicism or Protestantism? Neither.

[quote]The bold part does contradict Feeneyism, because it teaches that people ignorant of Catholicism will be punished.  They claim that if God wants an ignorant person to be saved, he will reveal the Church to them so that they can recieve the sacraments, etc. and that ignorance in one's own fault.  A feeneyite says:

To reiterate: if God knows that John Doe will accept the Truth (whether he's on a desert island or not), God will pre-arrange that the Church be brought to him. On the other hand, if God knows that John Doe is content as he is, and will have nothing to do with the Faith, God is committing no injustice to leave John as he is. St. Alphonsus already explained why so many are ignorant: they don't want to know, so God doesn't reveal Himself to them. They are content as they are, i.e., heaped in sin.
[/quote]
He's describing culpable ignorance (they don't want to know).

[quote]Saying that a person invincibly ignorant of Christ and His Church cannot attain eternal life is against Catholic teaching.[/quote]
I've never said this. All I have stated is [i]how[/i] such a person can attain eternal life, namely by being added to the Catholic Church before death.

[Hananiah]

[i]"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the seperation those who at present are born into these communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ"[/i]

Agreed. How many times must I repeat myself? Invincible ignorance renders one inculpable for the sin of remaining outside the Catholic Church.

[i]"All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ"[/i]

Agreed. 1 Cor 12.

[i]"they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children ot the Catholic Church. (818)"[/i]

This is true, but I think the Catechism is in need of one more clause to clarify the meaning of this paragraph: "until such time as they reject the Catholic Church."

[quote]Now, Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire, and Baptism by water are all valid baptisms. So the Church regards them as brothers and says they are incorporated into Christ. The only way we can be saved is to be resurrected with Christ. Iranaeus talks about the corruptible being joined to the incorruptible and sharing in it with Him. Protestants are saved as well as the Eastern churches.[/quote]
I really don't see how this conclusion follows from the premises.

[quote]It seems to me that for a creature that cant stay awake for longer than 6 hours along with not understanding a word we say for a good year or so would be covered under the realm of invincible ignorance. Now, if this justifies us, and the justified(without mortal sin) and the sinless go to heaven, why dont babies go there?[/quote]
Didn't you read the first post in this thread. Mortal sin or [b]original sin only[/b] suffices to deprive one of the beatific vision.

[Apotheoun]

For those interested in reading it, the following is the [u]Letter of the Holy Office to Archbishop Cushing[/u] in its entirety, along with the 1952 [u]Letter of Archbishop Cushing[/u] in which permission for the official publication of the original 1949 letter of the Holy Office has been granted:


[b]LETTER OF ARCHBISHOP CUSHING[/b]

The Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has examined again the problem of Father Leonard Feeney and St. Benedict Center. Having studied carefully the publications issued by the Center, and having considered all the circumstances of this case, the Sacred Congregation has ordered me to publish, in its entirety, the letter which the same Congregation sent me on the 8th of August, 1949. The Supreme Pontiff, His Holiness, Pope Pius XII, has given full approval to this decision. In due obedience, therefore, we publish, in its entirety, the Latin text of the letter as received from the Holy Office with an English translation of the same approved by the Holy See.

Given at Boston, Mass., the 4th day of September, 1952.

Walter J. Furlong, Chancellor

+ Richard J. Cushing, Archbishop of Boston.


[b]LETTER OF THE SACRED CONGREGATION OF THE HOLY OFFICE[/b]

From the Headquarters of the Holy Office, Aug. 8, 1949.

Your Excellency:

This Supreme Sacred Congregation has followed very attentively the rise and the course of the grave controversy stirred up by certain associates of "St. Benedict Center" and "Boston College" in regard to the interpretation of that axiom: "Outside the Church there is no salvation."

After having examined all the documents that are necessary or useful in this matter, among them information from your Chancery, as well as appeals and reports in which the associates of "St. Benedict Center" explain their opinions and complaints, and also many other documents pertinent to the controversy, officially collected, the same Sacred Congregation is convinced that the unfortunate controversy arose from the fact that the axiom, "outside the Church there is no salvation," was not correctly understood and weighed, and that the same controversy was rendered more bitter by serious disturbance of discipline arising from the fact that some of the associates of the institutions mentioned above refused reverence and obedience to legitimate authorities.

Accordingly, the Most Eminent and Most Reverend Cardinals of this Supreme Congregation, in a plenary session held on Wednesday, July 27, 1949, decreed, and the august Pontiff in an audience on the following Thursday, July 28, 1949, deigned to give his approval, that the following explanations pertinent to the doctrine, and also that invitations and exhortations relevant to discipline be given:

We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office (Denzinger, n. 1792).

Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.

However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.

Now, in the first place, the Church teaches that in this matter there is question of a most strict command of Jesus Christ. For He explicitly enjoined on His apostles to teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever He Himself had commanded (Matt. 28: 19-20).

Now, among the commandments of Christ, that one holds not the least place by which we are commanded to be incorporated by baptism into the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, and to remain united to Christ and to His Vicar, through whom He Himself in a visible manner governs the Church on earth.

Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.

Not only did the Savior command that all nations should enter the Church, but He also decreed the Church to be a means of salvation without which no one can enter the kingdom of eternal glory.

In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circumstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (Denzinger, nn. 797, 807).

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.

These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, "On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ" (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.

Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is composed here on earth, the same august Pontiff says: "Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed."

Toward the end of this same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who "are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire," and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition "in which they cannot be sure of their salvation" since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church" (AAS, 1. c., p. 243). With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion (cf. Pope Pius IX, Allocution, "Singulari quadam", in Denzinger, n. 1641 ff.; also Pope Pius IX in the encyclical letter, "Quanto conficiamur moerore", in Denzinger, n. 1677).

But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children" (Denzinger, n. 801).

From what has been said it is evident that those things which are proposed in the periodical "From the Housetops", fascicle 3, as the genuine teaching of the Catholic Church are far from being such and are very harmful both to those within the Church and those without.

From these declarations which pertain to doctrine, certain conclusions follow which regard discipline and conduct, and which cannot be unknown to those who vigorously defend the necessity by which all are bound' of belonging to the true Church and of submitting to the authority of the Roman Pontiff and of the Bishops "whom the Holy Ghost has placed . . . to rule the Church" (Acts 20:28).

Hence, one cannot understand how the St. Benedict Center can consistently claim to be a Catholic school and wish to be accounted such, and yet not conform to the prescriptions of canons 1381 and 1382 of the Code of Canon Law, and continue to exist as a source of discord and rebellion against ecclesiastical authority and as a source of the disturbance of many consciences.

Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the Faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities, and has not even feared to incur grave sanctions threatened by the sacred canons because of his serious violations of his duties as a religious, a priest, and an ordinary member of the Church.

Finally, it is in no wise to be tolerated that certain Catholics shall claim for themselves the right to publish a periodical, for the purpose of spreading theological doctrines, without the permission of competent Church authority, called the "imprimatur," which is prescribed by the sacred canons.

Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after "Rome has spoken" they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty of obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of those who as yet are related to the Church "only by an unconscious desire." Let them realize that they are children of the Church, lovingly nourished by her with the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence, having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot be excused from culpable ignorance, and therefore to them apply without any restriction that principle: submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation.

In sending this letter, I declare my profound esteem, and remain,

Your Excellency's most devoted,

+ F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani.

A. Ottaviani, Assessor.

Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, 8 Aug., 1949

Edited July 10, 2004 by Apotheoun