Repost on "Mature Discerners"

[Amyprs12]

On 6/14/2021 at 11:59 AM, nikita92 said:

"Can I just chip in from my experience of 'the other side of the grille', so to speak?

 

In my time at Tyburn (5 1/2 years) we saw a LOT of ladies coming to discern vocations. Many of them were older ladies. As a younger sister, I was encouraged to talk with them and try to help them out a bit.

 

I must admit that most of them - NOT ALL OF THEM; just most - didn't seem to have any signs of a real call from God. They were pious women, and good women, but who in some cases came with a 'shopping list' of what they wanted and didn't want in a community.

 

Some were also (only too clearly) older single ladies looking for a kind of sympathetic Catholic retirement village. They had no idea they would be called upon to work physically hard to maintain the convent and the life we lived there. I think some of them thought we still had lay sisters ... 

 

Some were genuine odd-bods who would have trouble fitting in anywhere, and would very quickly find the psychological pressures of an enclosed contemplative community were too much for them. We had an older woman live-in once who ended up slapping one of our older sisters!

 

We also had a couple of older women who actually entered as postulants who were also in this category - oddbods, with limited insight into religious life - but who pretty much refused to leave until they were kindly and firmly counselled out. This is where I learned that 'discernment is a two-way street'. This also comes as a surprise to many older women who come to convents, as they seem to think that they will be leapt upon and ushered in on the spot because orders are 'desperate' for vocations. Not so, ladies. Not so.

 

Convent-shopping - and there are women who do this - is not really a good way of going about finding what God wants and is calling you to do. You do have to go and try the life, and if you don't like it, it's good to move on quickly, and that's commendable that your relative has moved on when she hasn't found what she's clearly looking for.

 

I know there are saints and holy men and women who have found 'late' vocations. But realistically, as time passes, the likelihood of finding the 'right' place does diminish. It's like having a baby - it CAN happen at a much older age, but it's just much less likely! So it's also good to encourage her to explore other options like becoming a consecrated virgin or making private vows. There are many many ways a single woman can do good in the Church and in the world, and still have a contemplative inner life.

 

But yes - beware the professional middle-aged long-distance discerner. I know that religious orders are very wary of these women, and with good reason, which may also explain your relative's lack of success so far."

@nikita92

May God bless you and turn your view on discerners of all ages to become a perspective of compassion, hope, and love.  I’m so sad to read your disheartening perspectives on the prospects of older discerners.  Remember the caller, the one who says that they are a fit or not, is Jesus, not you, not the community, not even the discerners, but Jesus.  Most difficult to understand.  I get it.  Whether one is already in a religious community or not, faith in God is always a path that we frequently fail to take.  Trust in God.  Refrain from judgements on others, like saying “odd-bods” or from the reliance on statistical probability.  Rely only on God.  You were encouraged to talk to “older ladies” and “help them a bit.”   I encourage you not to talk to them, especially with your mindset.  It is not encouraging for anyone!  I do encourage you to help them by praying for them and having faith that the best help that discerners can get is from Jesus himself and not from you.

[Sponsa-Christi]

@Amyprs12 I'm a big believer that God calls whomever He calls, and on His own time; but I don't think this negates the value of practical discussions on the special challenges that "mature" discerners face.

The reality of the fact is that many (most?) women's communities do have upper age limits, and this is something that isn't going to change based on the internet's opinion of the justness of such a standard. But beyond that, I think mature discerners do need--for their own spiritual well-being--to be very realistic about the challenges of religious/consecrated life and their aptitude for adjusting to these challenges at an older age. Also, again for the own sake, mature discerners need to be very honest with themselves about their motivations for discerning.

Youth is naturally the time to be discerning one's vocation, and if someone is 40+ and just beginning to consider a religious vocation, it may be because they have a genuine delayed vocation--but it may also be because they are trying, consciously or not, to make religious life the solution for a more human problem (like, needing a place to retire, feeling awkward about still being single, etc.) Even if a mature discerner does have a genuine vocation, she and the community owe it to themselves and to each other to at least ask these hard questions. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

On 6/14/2021 at 2:59 PM, nikita92 said:

So it's also good to encourage her to explore other options like becoming a consecrated virgin or making private vows.

A minor quibble, but I'm actually in favor of dioceses having stated upper age limits for consecrated virgins! (With the understanding that exceptions could be make in truly exceptional cases.)

Obviously consecrated virginity is different from religious life in that CVs are generally self-supporting, but from personal experience I think mature aspiring consecrated virgins are very susceptible to having less-than-perfect motives--like, for example, discerning consecrated virginity as a "consolation prize" because of being disappointed in either romantic love or religious community life. I know some wonderful "older" CVs, so of course this isn't everyone, but it is quite a lot of discerners. But to live a truly happy and fruitful life as a CV, you really need to treat this as a "first choice" vocation and see it as a deliberate choice with a real sacrificial dimension. 

Also, it is much easier to "grow into" a vocation as a CV when you are young and still determining the shape of your exterior life, as opposed to trying to fit an already established life (with all its pre-existing commitments) into a new vocation to consecrated life. Again, this definitely isn't impossible, but it still behooves mature discerns to consider the particular challenges that one will encounter as an "older" new CV. 

[Nunsuch]

11 hours ago, Amyprs12 said:

@nikita92

May God bless you and turn your view on discerners of all ages to become a perspective of compassion, hope, and love.  I’m so sad to read your disheartening perspectives on the prospects of older discerners.  Remember the caller, the one who says that they are a fit or not, is Jesus, not you, not the community, not even the discerners, but Jesus.  Most difficult to understand.  I get it.  Whether one is already in a religious community or not, faith in God is always a path that we frequently fail to take.  Trust in God.  Refrain from judgements on others, like saying “odd-bods” or from the reliance on statistical probability.  Rely only on God.  You were encouraged to talk to “older ladies” and “help them a bit.”   I encourage you not to talk to them, especially with your mindset.  It is not encouraging for anyone!  I do encourage you to help them by praying for them and having faith that the best help that discerners can get is from Jesus himself and not from you.

Of course God calls, but discernment is a two-way street between the seeker and the congregation. A vocation is verified when it is accepted (just as a call to priesthood is verified at the moment of ordination, not when someone decides he has a call to priesthood). 

Members of religious communities--at least responsible ones--have rigorous and demanding processes for accepting new members and for determining who is an appropriate member for them. They have far more experience in these matters than the discerner does. And they have a *responsibility* to the community and its members not to act irresponsibly--not to accept those who would not be appropriate or qualified members.

[nikita92]

17 hours ago, Amyprs12 said:

@nikita92

May God bless you and turn your view on discerners of all ages to become a perspective of compassion, hope, and love.  I’m so sad to read your disheartening perspectives on the prospects of older discerners.  Remember the caller, the one who says that they are a fit or not, is Jesus, not you, not the community, not even the discerners, but Jesus.  Most difficult to understand.  I get it.  Whether one is already in a religious community or not, faith in God is always a path that we frequently fail to take.  Trust in God.  Refrain from judgements on others, like saying “odd-bods” or from the reliance on statistical probability.  Rely only on God.  You were encouraged to talk to “older ladies” and “help them a bit.”   I encourage you not to talk to them, especially with your mindset.  It is not encouraging for anyone!  I do encourage you to help them by praying for them and having faith that the best help that discerners can get is from Jesus himself and not from you.

I would like to remind everyone, that this is a repost of a old post from back in 2013. I am not the author of it! 

[Amyprs12]

5 hours ago, nikita92 said:

I would like to remind everyone, that this is a repost of a old post from back in 2013. I am not the author of it! 

This is a clear example of ageism, of micro-aggression that everyone seems to be condoning as okay.  The only reason this 2013 should be reposted is to say that it is wrong.  It is not an example of following Christ.  Instead, it seems to be used to justify the ugliness of pride among those who supposedly desire to imitate Jesus and Mary.  Don’t spread evilness @nikita92 Older women endure enough discrimination already!  Why spread more out of pride? To feel knowledgeable and respected? Seek humility and not awe from others.

[nikita92]

Amy- You are entitled to post your perspective; just as I am entitled to repost what I wish. You are judging me on something I have not even personally commented on myself. By the way...for your information..I will be turning 64 next month! 0;->

[Ash Wednesday]

On 11/30/2021 at 3:21 AM, Amyprs12 said:

This is a clear example of ageism, of micro-aggression that everyone seems to be condoning as okay.  The only reason this 2013 should be reposted is to say that it is wrong.  It is not an example of following Christ.  Instead, it seems to be used to justify the ugliness of pride among those who supposedly desire to imitate Jesus and Mary.  Don’t spread evilness @nikita92 Older women endure enough discrimination already!  Why spread more out of pride? To feel knowledgeable and respected? Seek humility and not awe from others.

You'll fare much better on this board if you give people a greater benefit of the doubt rather than assuming the worst about them. 

[HollyDolly]

 Why does everyone  have to snip at each other? So much of this goes on nowadays because of social media.Did it happen in the past yes, but it's really gotten worse since this modern age. I once wanted to be a nun, in fact my parents took me to see the Discaled Carmelites in San Antonio, of course we had an appointment. Did I join, no.Why, because my mom had a stroke and took care of her until she passed, and then later my dad with his COPD until he died. Have I thought about it, yes. But something more active, like the Parish Visitors of Mary Immaculate, or Sisters of Charity,etc. especially work with children and the elderly, and families in general. However, I'm still working  and haven't retired yet, especially with this whole Covid -19 deal, not sure when would be a good time to do so.   Maybe the life of a beguine would suit me if it was possible. I know there are a few in Europe still, and if there were any in Germany (dad's side), it's possible I  had some ancestor who was a member  centuries ago, maybe that's why the idea appeals to me.  For those who are over the age limit of some communities, maybe they have an associates program, or volunteer program for those active  enough in their golden years who can help. 

[Mhairi]

If I remember right, this original post was from someone who had been in a contemplative community for several years and had witnessed quite a few entrances and exits, and I certainly encountered some interesting people who were discerning with my community in my time in religious life in the 80s. I can only speak for the UK and a couple of contemplative communities now, but with the advent of Cor Orans the discernment process (on both sides) gives both community and discerner up to 2 years as an aspirant, up to 2 years as a postulant, and up to 2.5 years as a novice, so there is certainly more time for a thorough exploration of all the joys and challenges of community living! There are many women and men out there who want to explore if God is calling them to religious life and a period of aspirancy can facilitate that process without commitment on either side.

Personally I would be wary of any community that rushes any part of the process. I know of one contemplative community in the UK who has basically insisted that prospective entrants do not have a ‘live-in’ and give away everything prior to entering (with the community being the beneficiary). This happened to two people in their 50s who were left penniless when the community voted for them to leave. This is downright unethical apart from anything.

[Sponsa-Christi]

11 hours ago, Mhairi said:

I know of one contemplative community in the UK who has basically insisted that prospective entrants do not have a ‘live-in’ and give away everything prior to entering (with the community being the beneficiary). This happened to two people in their 50s who were left penniless when the community voted for them to leave. This is downright unethical apart from anything.

This is also *really,* super-against canon law!

[Mhairi]

Yes indeed, Sponsa! Sadly it didn’t stop the community doing it …

[Sister Leticia]

On 12/1/2021 at 6:10 PM, Mhairi said:

I know of one contemplative community in the UK who has basically insisted that prospective entrants do not have a ‘live-in’ and give away everything prior to entering (with the community being the beneficiary). This happened to two people in their 50s who were left penniless when the community voted for them to leave.

I'm in the UK, and I'm now wondering which community this is. The most enclosed one I can think of (ie, a community unlikely to allow live-ins, because it would mean allowing someone who is not a sister into the enclosure) has an upper age limit of 35. 

I'll add that when people are utterly in love with Christ, then they might well want to divest themselves of everything and be as radical as possible. After all, we admire Christ's disciples and our favourite saints for just such generosity and radicality. And of course, nobody embarks on religious life or marriage thinking it might be temporary! - so they don't think they'll regret getting rid of things, because they don't want to imagine every needing them again. So, their generosity and fervour needs to be nurtured, of course, BUT there is a need for prudent, impartial advice, and practical help. Assigning your property to a trusted person (instead of selling it) or storing things in someone's attic while in formation doesn't make you less fervent or "given" - it just means you're being sensible!

[Mhairi]

Sr Leticia, guess again! It is a community that has had two Apostolic visitations regarding this and other concerns. It is a sad but true state of affairs …