Repost on "Mature Discerners"

[nikita92]

"Can I just chip in from my experience of 'the other side of the grille', so to speak?

 

In my time at Tyburn (5 1/2 years) we saw a LOT of ladies coming to discern vocations. Many of them were older ladies. As a younger sister, I was encouraged to talk with them and try to help them out a bit.

 

I must admit that most of them - NOT ALL OF THEM; just most - didn't seem to have any signs of a real call from God. They were pious women, and good women, but who in some cases came with a 'shopping list' of what they wanted and didn't want in a community.

 

Some were also (only too clearly) older single ladies looking for a kind of sympathetic Catholic retirement village. They had no idea they would be called upon to work physically hard to maintain the convent and the life we lived there. I think some of them thought we still had lay sisters ... 

 

Some were genuine odd-bods who would have trouble fitting in anywhere, and would very quickly find the psychological pressures of an enclosed contemplative community were too much for them. We had an older woman live-in once who ended up slapping one of our older sisters!

 

We also had a couple of older women who actually entered as postulants who were also in this category - oddbods, with limited insight into religious life - but who pretty much refused to leave until they were kindly and firmly counselled out. This is where I learned that 'discernment is a two-way street'. This also comes as a surprise to many older women who come to convents, as they seem to think that they will be leapt upon and ushered in on the spot because orders are 'desperate' for vocations. Not so, ladies. Not so.

 

Convent-shopping - and there are women who do this - is not really a good way of going about finding what God wants and is calling you to do. You do have to go and try the life, and if you don't like it, it's good to move on quickly, and that's commendable that your relative has moved on when she hasn't found what she's clearly looking for.

 

I know there are saints and holy men and women who have found 'late' vocations. But realistically, as time passes, the likelihood of finding the 'right' place does diminish. It's like having a baby - it CAN happen at a much older age, but it's just much less likely! So it's also good to encourage her to explore other options like becoming a consecrated virgin or making private vows. There are many many ways a single woman can do good in the Church and in the world, and still have a contemplative inner life.

 

But yes - beware the professional middle-aged long-distance discerner. I know that religious orders are very wary of these women, and with good reason, which may also explain your relative's lack of success so far."

[Sister Leticia]

Hello

I'm confused! This looks like @nikita92 is replying to someone... but the original post isn't there. Or have you copied and pasted from elsewhere? 

[nikita92]

Yes I found it and reposted it. 

It was originally posted here in 2013. 

[gloriana35]

Offhand, it strikes me that, until I saw this forum, I'd had no idea that there were various women seeking to enter religious life when they were 60-80 (I recall someone once asking who took 'older vocation,' and mentioning that age group when those responding mentioned communities which accepted women who were over 40.) 

I could be totally incorrect, but I wonder if many ladies, perhaps born in the 1940s or 50s, had some inclination towards convent life in youth, but had some reason they did not pursue this. In 1960, to choose a date at random, many girls and young women had known many religious - there might be a large group just teaching in a parish school. Many Sisters entered convent, at a young age, after the war years. Then, c. 1970, they started leaving in droves.  Those who were devout, who may have been encouraged to enter a convent ten years earlier, were likely to be discouraged.

I wonder if some have a life-long dream (still with rose-coloured glasses?), which they hope to fulfil in their mature years? Even some of the young here seem to be pining for a perfect past which never existed. It is not only about religious life. I am of mature years. I indeed miss some past situations (not necessarily religious at all.) Yet participate on a forum about the 'good old days,' and there is an idea that things were far more perfect than they were. 

[islandanchoress]

In the UK anyways, it used to be possible for older women who had raised their families, been widowed maybe, to live in or alongside a convent without entering. A quiet holy life and helping with secular things. That was good and right.  A separate house.  

On 6/16/2021 at 8:39 AM, nikita92 said:

Yes I found it and reposted it. 

It was originally posted here in 2013. 

A shocking post. so uncharitable and snidely judgemental. Maybe is why orders are dying. shudders.

[Dymphna]

2 hours ago, islandanchoress said:

In the UK anyways, it used to be possible for older women who had raised their families, been widowed maybe, to live in or alongside a convent without entering.

I know of convents of Capuchin sisters in my country (in Europe) where one or two women live with the sisters without being members. This seems to be a good option if a woman is maybe not able (any more) to adapt to the full convent lifestyle, but wants to join and support the community.

As for the re-posted original post: I'm not interested in contemplative communities, though would probably fit the odd-bods description. But so do a lot of sisters, nuns and male religious I know. What else do you expect from a religion founded by a man who gave priority to outcasts wherever he could?

[islandanchoress]

2 hours ago, Dymphna said:

I know of convents of Capuchin sisters in my country (in Europe) where one or two women live with the sisters without being members. This seems to be a good option if a woman is maybe not able (any more) to adapt to the full convent lifestyle, but wants to join and support the community.

As for the re-posted original post: I'm not interested in contemplative communities, though would probably fit the odd-bods description. But so do a lot of sisters, nuns and male religious I know. What else do you expect from a religion founded by a man who gave priority to outcasts wherever he could?

WOW.. just WOW // agree totally...  

I am thinking with huge sadness of a dear lady I first met  twenty years ago out here in  Ireland . She had raised her family and longed with all her heart to live as you say. She used to spend weekends with the Poor Clares and just yearned for more. I was new here and as I am a religious she spent hours with me.  Every Friday at  three, Chaplet  of Divine Mercy,,,, Now she is failing mentally and so so so sad. I cannot get to see here any more now as I have no car any more and am too unwell now. . Her family have to patience with her.  WHY is there nothing for folk like her who have given their active  life raising a family and now need... Just to be holy women in company with likeminded... .  A crying shame. 

[gloriana35]

I used to have a friend, Petra,  who was a vocation director (we weren't from the same congregation.) She told me of a situation that had her stunned - but she didn't understand the thinking of the ladies, and neither did I. This must have been in the 1980s. Petra had received a letter from two friends who both had an interest in possibly entering her community. When they came to visit, it turned out that both were in the 70s. They told her that they'd been on a waiting list for a residence for seniors for some time. Petra thought that they were saying 'I couldn't get an affordable place to live, so I thought I'd join a convent.'

As it turned out, they thought a religious Sister would understand their viewpoint at once. Neither of them ever had been married, and they were life-long, devout Catholics. When they spent so much time on that waiting list, they thought it might not be God's will for them to get flats there - and that they could devote the rest of their lives to living as Religious. 

I don't know if this still is true, but I did know of religious houses, both in the UK and on the continent, where unmarried/widowed ladies lived in houses attached to convents. They participated in the prayer life - accompanied Sisters for travelling or hospital procedures (it wasn't so long ago when Sisters didn't go out alone, in some congregations), and so forth.

[Nunsuch]

I have a good friend--a widow in her 80s--who lives in an apartment adjacent to a motherhouse. She is an Associate of the congregation, goes to daily Mass there, and volunteers as she can (her health is precarious) within the community. This is an option open to lots of people. But it is NOT the same as becoming a member of a congregation when one is elderly. Congregations--most with declining and aging memberships themselves--often have barely enough resources to support the lifelong members. Further, Religious life requires *formation*--which is unlikely to be easy or even viable for elderly persons.

Seriously, religious life is a specific vocation--it is not a retirement or care option. 

[Nunsuch]

I should note that becoming an Associate also involves formation, but it is generally shorter and more personalized than that for vowed membership. In this particular Congregation (in which I also am an Associate), we are able to participate in small groups (Mission Circles) alongside vowed members, to attend summer assembly and chapter (though we cannot vote), and jubilees are celebrated, deaths are noted, etc. We serve on Congregational committees, etc. [I'm on the Justice, Peace, and Sustainability Committee.] But we are responsible for our own livelihoods, health care, etc. We *can * be buried in the community cemetery.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Nunsuch
grammar

[islandanchoress]

On 6/22/2021 at 2:59 PM, Nunsuch said:

I have a good friend--a widow in her 80s--who lives in an apartment adjacent to a motherhouse. She is an Associate of the congregation, goes to daily Mass there, and volunteers as she can (her health is precarious) within the community. This is an option open to lots of people. But it is NOT the same as becoming a member of a congregation when one is elderly. Congregations--most with declining and aging memberships themselves--often have barely enough resources to support the lifelong members. Further, Religious life requires *formation*--which is unlikely to be easy or even viable for elderly persons.

Seriously, religious life is a specific vocation--it is not a retirement or care option. 

I think in your last shocking and uncharitable para you completely misunderstand these ladies. and make religious life elitist and  of pride rather than humility and listening to God re who He sends .

 

Hence the decline in communities and a good thing if this is  what they have become.  Surely God chooses and you really need to listen to him and trust Him.   Not limit Him , Also many women take new roads in older age; we are not fossils. GEE Just GEEE

[Nunsuch]

1 hour ago, islandanchoress said:

I think in your last shocking and uncharitable para you completely misunderstand these ladies. and make religious life elitist and  of pride rather than humility and listening to God re who He sends .

 

Hence the decline in communities and a good thing if this is  what they have become.  Surely God chooses and you really need to listen to him and trust Him.   Not limit Him , Also many women take new roads in older age; we are not fossils. GEE Just GEEE

There is really nothing to say here but, based on this post and others you have written, you seem to have issues with judgment and anger.  I'm sorry about that, of course, and I will say a prayer for you, but I will not respond to you again. Two questions? Do you have any evidence to support your rather astounding claim of causation in your final paragraph? And do you think that the community leaders who do not understand their communities as being open to older women for their "golden years" are not listening to God--and that they don't have far more experience with religious discernment than you (or these women)?

 

[gloriana35]

I agree with Nunsuch. I shall add - in case there was any doubt - that the elderly ladies I mentioned in my previous post were not accepted into the community. I was only referring to a way of thinking. There is no question that a singular grace can be granted to us at any time - perhaps, in one's mature years (as those in which I am), there can be a growing dedication to God. But sincere, caring ladies sometimes see convent life as a retirement or care option. I understand that some congregations (who are lucky to have any members left who are not elderly, in the first place) have tried to adapt an empty building as a residence for those who wish to pay to live in a retirement community near a congregation with which they have an association. How successful this has been, I've no idea.

[HollyDolly]

Don't know how true anything about this is in regards to older women over 50 to 60 range wanting to be nuns. These ladies you mentioned that were  late 60s, ealry 70s, can try to become secular tertaries of  St.francis, St.Dominic, etc. Some orders have lay associates who share in the orders works Or they can join a secular institute.Just a thought.

[gloriana35]

I wouldn't be surprised if the devout sorts who were mentioned on this thread already belonged to third orders or were lay associates. The impression I had was of those who actually wanted to enter convents as members - certainly, as one post said, to 'live with holy women.' 

Years ago, it was unusual, though not impossible, for tertiaries to live in religious houses. I knew a third order Franciscan who was a cook - at the time, the friars had a generalate, noviciate, boys' school, and minor seminary on their grounds. He wore a simple habit (similar to that of the friars, though it had no cowl), and was called by his religious name. However, as sadly is true for many congregations, the friars mostly had died or left - the properties were sold - and the tertiary ended up living at a parish rectory (then staffed by the friars) until he found a job and flat. (That would not have been a simple task. I don't know what happened to him.)