Teenlife Mass - Just Rock N Pop?

[ladybug]

I tried to share a link to THIS web site on the Live Journal Catholics community, and the moderator blocked my post. I just put a link and said "What do you all think?" But I'm not even allowed to show them. I'm a little upset at that. I was not trying to stir up any trouble.

I don't really listen to hip hop, but I see a double standard here. Life Teen mass has electric guitars and rock, but hip hop can be even softer sounding than that sometimes and people don't want it at Life Teen? I don't get it.

To me it just sounds like poetry set to a beat. It's about the lyrics, not the sound. Look at the Psalms. They look a little like a rap.


If there is going to be Life Teen in a part of town that most of the kids prefer a rhythm and rhyme over electric guitars and screaming...why not talk to those kids in their own language?

I feel like I'm being sucked into this movement, even though I'm a white woman approaching middle age who listens to old fashioned benedictine chant. I'm a right wing republican and very conservative.

But I realize that my music taste isn't the only taste, my culture isn't the only culture, and if these kids aren't encouraged in a positive way to express their music (and church should be a safe haven) then they are going to fall victim to rapping about sex and drugs and gangster life because that seems to be what people are expecting of them. We need to get these kids off of the street and let them express themselves in Godly ways. We need to get out of our comfort zones because it is all about saving these kids. They are our future. We've got to turn it around!

I thought at least other catholics would understand. You know when our missionaries preached to the Native Americans we lived with them and lived like they did. We should become all things to all people so they can feel safe. We should accept the parts of culture that are good and not assume their culture is all bad.

And other catholics should know this as we have many things adopted and christianized from other cultures.

OK I'm rambling now.

[flip]

hey. you know what, i totally agree with you. ive argued that same point. but if you say anything about using hip hop in mass here, everyone but maybe 3 people will fight you to the death about it.

phatmass does not stand for hip hop in mass. actually, most of the phatmass kids here hate lifeteen....sorry if you thought your ideas would be welcomed here... most of the kids here are very hardcore about "the scaredness of mass" and think that any music outside of traditinal hymns or gregorian chants is not and never can be sacred.

[ilovechrist]

easy there flip.. most of us don't hate lifeteen. i'm very active on their website, and have pushed for their youth ministry to start @ my own parish.

i'm not fond of some of the proceedings in Mass--i.e. the altar gathering, the different Creed, and so forth.

now... on the music. my standpoint is that--when you use more than an organ/keyboard/piano w/ the choir, it starts to provide a distraction from what the Mass is really all about. instead of really concentrating on the Real Presence, people start clapping along to the upbeat version of the Agnus Dei.

now.. acoustic guitars... they're fine. nice and soft. but bring in electrics, and it ruins the point. same with the hiphop. people start bouncing and just want to rap. not worship during the Mass.

now, do you know what would be dope? a few tracks on Aftermass with pure Gregorian Chant--with a beat behind it. THAT would be dope.

[Seven77]

[quote name='ilovechrist' date='Jul 9 2004, 01:23 PM'] now... on the music. my standpoint is that--when you use more than an organ/keyboard/piano w/ the choir, it starts to provide a distraction from what the Mass is really all about. instead of really concentrating on the Real Presence, people start clapping along to the upbeat version of the Agnus Dei.

now.. acoustic guitars... they're fine. nice and soft. but bring in electrics, and it ruins the point. same with the hiphop. people start bouncing and just want to rap. not worship during the Mass.
[/quote]
true. hip-hop would become the main focus instead of the Divine Liturgy, Jesus Really Present in the Eucharist...

"people start bouncing and just want to rap. not worship during the Mass." word. and i dont see how people DONT get distracted with rock music. save that stuff for shows or praise and worship outside of the Mass. there is a time and a place for everything. check out Ecclesiastes.

[CatholicCrusader]

First of all, I would like to say welcome ladybug. I, too, am right wing both religiously and politically (I attend Latin Mass and want a monarchy...)

In regard to your comments:

[quote]We need to get out of our comfort zones because it is all about saving these kids. They are our future. We've got to turn it around!

I thought at least other catholics would understand. You know when our missionaries preached to the Native Americans we lived with them and lived like they did. We should become all things to all people so they can feel safe. We should accept the parts of culture that are good and not assume their culture is all bad. [/quote]

You are right: when missionaries went to the Indians they didn't build European houses and live as they did before; however, you cannot adopt all their culture, or any of it, for that matter, that is opposed to morality. For example, the Jesuits didn't strip down and wear next-to-nothing like the Indians. Rather, they taught them how to dress modestly. They never adopted the Indian music at Mass. Rather, they taught the Indians Gregorian Chant and polyphonic singing. We cannot compromise on an issue that would be immoral. Rap music is immoral. We cannot allow it, especially in Mass.

You say we should get out of our comfort zones. Why should not the teens get out of theirs, especially when that kind of music is immoral and music for Mass is not? Here are the notes for a sermon my pastor gave back in September dealing with the mortality of differing forms of music (both lyrical and the actual music itself):

[quote]God is not mocked. . . He that soweth in the flesh shall reap corruption of the flesh; but he that soweth in the spirit, from the sprit shall reap eternal life.
21 September 2003

19th century, Dickens, Tale of Two Cities: Paris & London; life and death
Naim and Capharnaum.

Capharnaum: (Village of Consolation)
Hometown of both Our Lord and St. Peter (Mt. 4:13; Mk. 1:29)
Call of St. Matthew
Faith/miracles: Paralytic let down through roof; Centurion’s servant

It is shortly after this last miracle that Our Lord, followed by a “great multitude”, travels south towards Naim, an insignificant little town some 25 miles away, about two miles south of Mt. Tabor.  Naim, by the way, means “beautiful meadow”

At the city gates, the Lord encounters a funeral procession coming in the opposite direction.  Consider the contrast between these two multitudes:

Multitude from Capharnaum is full of expectation and hope, waiting to see what else the Lord will say and do.

The multitude accompanying the weeping widow out of Naim is preoccupied with the untimely death of the only son.

With just a few strokes of the pen, St. Luke has sketched a scene full of significance.  From the “Village of consolation” the Lord of life approaches; from the beautiful meadow, the stark reality of death comes forth.  On the spiritual level, Capharnaum and the great multitude signify both those filled with sanctifying grace, as well as the City of God, the great Ecclesia Dei, the Assembly or Church of God.  Beautiful Naim, on the other hand, stands for the City of Man, where everything, no matter how beautiful or attractive it may be, is, in the final analysis, reducible to disillusion, despair, and death.  For apart from the supernatural life of grace flowing from God through His Church, all of nature, however beautiful and attractive it may be in itself, will corrupt and die.


Let’s focus on one of those gateways: the sense of hearing.  Back in the 8th century, St. Bede the Venerable had this to say:  “He who listens to evil tales, to licentious songs, to calumny or detraction, opens his ears and makes them the gate through which death enters the soul.  That calumny, detraction, and evil tales existed in the 8th century probably surprises no one.  But when it comes to licentious songs, we usually think of our own times rather than those of St. Bede some 1300 years ago.  We think of Rock ‘n’ Roll and any number of its species: e.g., hard rock, punk, funk, grunge, gothic, heavy metal, rap, and new wave.

The problems:  sometimes the lyrics are bad (e.g., Imagine); sometimes the music is disordered but the lyrics are good (e.g., Christian rock); other times, both the lyrics and music are disordered (rap: degrades women)

What do we mean by “bad” lyrics or disordered music?  First, here’s what we don’t mean:  By “bad” we don’t mean that the music is not attractive.  On the contrary, rock musicians often do have a talent for melody: (Beatles, Led Zepelin (hypnotic), Billy Joel, Alabama, Yes, Rush, Doobie Brothers, Jethro Tull).  Nor by “bad” do we mean cheap or superficial, vulgar or unrefined.  To be sure, Rock ‘n’ Roll is cheap, superficial, often vulgar, and always unrefined—at least in comparison to Gregorian Chant, Palestrina, Vivaldi, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Mahler, Liszt, Bruckner, Debussy, Prokofiev, Gottchalk, Lecuona, Cervantes, and many others.  Nevertheless, it’s no sin to be unrefined.

Rock ‘n’ Roll in general is bad because it encourages the young and impressionable to feel good about rebellion against authority (esp. against parents); it lures listeners into the trap of illicit sexual activity.  Worse still, a lot of rock music exposes the listener to the world of drugs, witchcraft and the occult.  Other songs promote nihilism, a sense of despair, even suicide.  That being the case, I don’t think I am being unfair to Rock ‘n’ Roll when I say that it opposes the True, the Good, and the Beautiful; that it does little to edify the soul and draw it closer to God.

[b]Now, a lot of young people always justify their musical tastes by saying something like this: “I don’t listen to the lyrics.  I just like the beat.”  (Imagine an early Christian going to the Roman Circus, saying, Don’t worry, St. Paul, I don’t clap when the Christians get ripped apart by the lions; I just love the excitement and frenzy of the crowd, the action.)  The music is a vehicle for the words.  Listen to the music long enough and you will begin to be formed not only by the music, but also by the ideas contained in the lyrics.  (Nazi Germany).

But even if the lyrics were wholesome, one should also consider the influence of the music itself.  As I said earlier, it’s possible to have a decent piece of music and lousy lyrics (e.g., Imagine).  But it’s also possible to have objectively bad music, regardless whether the lyrics are good or bad.  In other words, music is not simply a matter of taste. . .

How to determine the moral quality of music.  Melody: idea, intellect.  Harmony: pleasing order, makes chaos more revolting.  Rhythm: energy, drive of music: it gives it motion, life.  When used in the service of melody and harmony, you hardly notice it.  But when rhythm becomes predominant in a piece, it stirs the passions.  As to which passions, that may depend on the context:  battlefield or nightclub.

Music is disordered if it encourages the passions to rule over the reason, to act chaotically.  Now, Rock ‘n’ Roll, at least in its earliest stages, was recognized to be just that kind of music.  At least Alan Freed, the man who coined the term R&R back in 1954 and brought this form of music to the mainstream market, made the connection.  Or so it would seem, considering his choice of terms.  What R&R meant originally.

If it is true that R&R promotes rebellion, sexual immorality, violence against women, suicide, then it is not unreasonable to conclude that R&R promotes the agenda of Satan.  If R&R promotes Satan’s agenda, then it’s fair to say that R&R (by and large) is diabolical.  I realize this may seem shocking to many of you, even outrageous.  In reply, all I can say is, don’t expect the devil to appear to you in person.  The devil is far more subtle than that.  He’ll take us out through our senses, through our flesh.  So take St. Paul’s words to heart:  “Be not deceived: God is not mocked.  For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap.  For he that soweth in his flesh, from the flesh also shall he reap corruption.”

Final advice: in the beginning you must trust: it can be difficult to sense and experience the edifying power of great music.  Listen to a great piece of music until you really enjoy it.  Tony Myers.

In a little while, when we receive Holy Communion, we will welcome Jesus our Lord and King, into our bodies and souls.  Afterwards, Father will pray the following prayer: “May our body and soul, O Lord, be possessed by the operation of the heavenly gift (i.e., the Holy Eucharist), so that the graces flowing therefrom, and not the impulses of nature, may inspire all of our actions.”  And I pray that everyone here today will be touched by the grace of God so as to have the courage to make this prayer his own; that he will examine all that he exposes himself to, including the music he listens to.  May we all exercise greater vigilance over the gates of our souls and submit all that is dead in us to the Lord of Life, so that He can touch us and renew our minds and hearts just as he restored to life the youth from Naim when He said to him: “Young man, I say to thee, Arise!”[/b]
[/quote]

God bless.

Edited July 9, 2004 by CatholicCrusader

[ladybug]

[quote name='Seven77' date='Jul 9 2004, 01:58 PM'] true. hip-hop would become the main focus instead of the Divine Liturgy, Jesus Really Present in the Eucharist...

"people start bouncing and just want to rap. not worship during the Mass." word. and i dont see how people DONT get distracted with rock music. save that stuff for shows or praise and worship outside of the Mass. there is a time and a place for everything. check out Ecclesiastes. [/quote]
That makes sense to me not to have too much clankety clang going on.

But see....I'm already annoyed by the folk music at my church's mass. It is very extremely cheesy and I've actually tried to hold back laughter when I'm trying to focus on mass.

When I first came to this church, they said "This is not the old fashioned cajun catholic mass you are used to" and so I've felt alienated since I've been here.

But I don't think there is any way to turn back the clock on what is already been unleashed in our church, and so we just have to find a way to be fair about it now.

And then their is that scripture about making a joyful noise in the sanctuary with trumpets, cymbols, dancing, and shouting with joy.

And sometimes in my own home I worship through dance. Sometimes I want to spin around in a flower field and be free and praise the Lord.

I wonder in heaven if we will be able to dance with Jesus. Right now I just rock my baby side to side while standing up, and no one realizes it's dance. It just looks like I'm comforting my baby.

-_-

[flip]

[quote name='ladybug' date='Jul 9 2004, 03:19 PM']

I wonder in heaven if we will be able to dance with Jesus. Right now I just rock my baby side to side while standing up, and no one realizes it's dance. It just looks like I'm comforting my baby.

-_- [/quote]

this is one of the most beautiful things ive ever heard...



i do wonder, in heaven, is their hip hop music? will i ever have to stop rapping? in the Great Divorce, Lewsi shows us a painter who is told that he can paint in Heaven of course, he just has to paint for God and not for himself...

i rap for God now... will i be able to do it in His prescence in Heaven, praising Him with it?








if the answer is "yes", than why can i not praise him with hip hop on Earth in His prescence? And where oh wehre is Christ present on Earth? Thats right folks, in the Mass...





Catholic Crusader... man, do you hate modernity. i love hip hop. and when i make hip hop music, it is God inspired and Holy Spirit driven. I you cannot understand that, you are ridiculous... remember, God can take the evil things and sancitify them (take human beings for example).

Edited July 9, 2004 by flip

[inDEED]

I so love this dude...

I'm so glad you're gonna become Catholic, man...

It's guys like YOU that started LIFEteen...

[Oik]

Flip, I think you are a lot of a bit harsh on people about this subject.

Actually,as far as lifeteen goes, MOST people like the minitry, the realtion, and the direction, but they disagree with a few bad liturgical actions.

HOWEVER THESE ARE CHANGING MY FRIENDS.

That's right. No more altar gathers, no more saying the mass never ends...
Believe me, I read it in the bulletin from Saint Timothy's from Father Dale Fusek himself!

So now that that's getting cleared up, I can actually support it 100% instead of just
98%.

[lifeteenchick527]

i personally like having faster music...it tends to help me focus more..dont get me wrong i like mass no matter wat...but especially to listen to out side of mass..i like the faster music better

[Guest]

i cant see how ya'll can hate on hiphop
God created HIPHOP
it is God inspired, its creative art work
nothen is evil in its self......thats scripture...Paul says it somewhere....actually he says nothen is unclean in itself........i dont know how anyone, with a brain, can sit here and say that hiphop is evil, esspially when its being used to praise the God that created it......JESUS LOVES HIPHOP....and that is not blasphemy......God loves everything he created.....I agree hiphop can be used in a negative way, a way that does not praise God, nor shed light to this world.....but to say that hiphop can not be used, nor is supported by God...is utter stupidness...and im ashmaed their are people out their who share this view....open up your heart, your eyes and your soul..........Jesus spoke in parrables....and when i rap i do the same thing......Jesus is understanding....Jesus is love...Jesus is mercy.......TO the person that is agaisnt my art form...tell me how a loveing God like JESUS, could codone my artform that I use to praise his name.....Its not so....and anyone disagreeing is not asking Jesus......their asking their flesh, and in expected fashion, their receiveing a fleshly anwser.......Peace In Christ....

[inDEED]

[quote name='Oik' date='Jul 9 2004, 09:39 PM'] Flip, I think you are a lot of a bit harsh on people about this subject.

Actually,as far as lifeteen goes, MOST people like the minitry, the realtion, and the direction, but they disagree with a few bad liturgical actions.

HOWEVER THESE ARE CHANGING MY FRIENDS.

That's right. No more altar gathers, no more saying the mass never ends...
Believe me, I read it in the bulletin from Saint Timothy's from Father Dale Fusek himself!

So now that that's getting cleared up, I can actually support it 100% instead of just
98%. [/quote]
Oik...do you go to St. Tim's?

[flip]

i dont mean to be harsh... sorry kid. i got mad love for kids here. im just calling it the way ive felt it...

[lifeteenchick527]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='Jul 10 2004, 01:42 AM'] i cant see how ya'll can hate on hiphop
God created HIPHOP
it is God inspired, its creative art work
nothen is evil in its self......thats scripture...Paul says it somewhere....actually he says nothen is unclean in itself........i dont know how anyone, with a brain, can sit here and say that hiphop is evil, esspially when its being used to praise the God that created it......JESUS LOVES HIPHOP....and that is not blasphemy......God loves everything he created.....I agree hiphop can be used in a negative way, a way that does not praise God, nor shed light to this world.....but to say that hiphop can not be used, nor is supported by God...is utter stupidness...and im ashmaed their are people out their who share this view....open up your heart, your eyes and your soul..........Jesus spoke in parrables....and when i rap i do the same thing......Jesus is understanding....Jesus is love...Jesus is mercy.......TO the person that is agaisnt my art form...tell me how a loveing God like JESUS, could codone my artform that I use to praise his name.....Its not so....and anyone disagreeing is not asking Jesus......their asking their flesh, and in expected fashion, their receiveing a fleshly anwser.......Peace In Christ.... [/quote]
well said...thats totally correct in my book

[littleflower+JMJ]

hi i just wanted to comment on these points made.

[quote]phatmass does not stand for hip hop in mass. actually, most of the phatmass kids here hate lifeteen....[/quote]

actually i wont limit it to just "phatmass" who wont stand fro hip hop in mass, i would go and say that the Catholic Church wont stand for hip-hop in mass (its called obedience). the Church calls for music that sacred and what the Church defines as sacred is whats acceptable.

[quote]sorry if you thought your ideas would be welcomed here... most of the kids here are very hardcore about "the scaredness of mass" [/quote]

exactly again no, the kids here are extraordinary and very awesome because their first and uttermost concern is not of themselves and what they like or think but of the Mother Church teachs.... they understand (as we all should) that its not up to us to decide but it is up to us to obey.

that i find commendable, not objectional.

we are to hold fast to traditions just like Our Lord instructed, by listening and following Rome, we are. it dosent matter what is hot today, rap or techno.

[quote]and think that any music outside of traditinal hymns or gregorian chants is not and never can be sacred. [/quote]

since its mass, and its [b]mandatory[/b] to be obedient and faithful to the instructions of the GIRM, we need to take up that responsibliy as catholics should. yes, we can praise Jesus, but The Mass is the core foundation of our faith.

i do not hate lifeteen, i disliked the abuses i saw.. and like oik said, i think i can support it alot more now, which i think is really great.

dont get me wrong, its a great program, but we have to understand the rubrics stands always. we must never forget that it is Mass. there is a reason why there is rubics, there is a reason why there are rules. we are in the presence of God and God is there to feed us, we go to mass to [u]meditate[/u] on Him and His mysteries. anything that takes away from that (any music) is unacceptable. music in mass must be easy to for everyone present, and supplement, their meditations.

the monks when they sing, write with no beat, so they do not take away from ppl trying to pray.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwrdsac.htm#Chapter%20III"]in fact the last thing the Church issued out particulary on abuses states.....(click here to read)[/url]


[quote]3. The Other Parts of the Mass

57. It is the right of the community of Christ’s faithful that especially in the Sunday celebration there should customarily be true and suitable sacred music, and that there should always be an altar, vestments and sacred linens that are dignified, proper, and clean, in accordance with the norms.[/quote]

of course im not saying "no! no! no! it can never be done, yada yada yada" i just think if we do anyting we do with the right intentions and properly (i.e. approval of bishop and such, perhaps onetime exceptions, etc.) it needs to be done right.

lets not lose sight of hte real reason we're there, for Jesus. not anyting else. and lets strive to listen to what our Holy Mother Church instructs us and how it been passed down to us for 2,000 yrs, for that is where the true beauty of our Church is found

i hope i dont sound mean, im just trying to clear the air.

God bless.
+JMJ+