Wow! The Eucharist In The Bible

[MorphRC]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 17 2004, 03:15 AM'] Who says?

A verse can have a literal meaning, and be typoloy at the same time [/quote]
The Church, Three of the best Priests, and a Top 3 Biblical Commentary of time. The verses can have only one meaning. 'Interpretation of the Bible in the Church - [i]Document[/i], 2000, [i]Pauline Media[/i]'.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 17 2004, 03:19 AM'] yeah, seriously, a verse does not only have one meaning. where did you get that c.a.r.p? [/quote]
Double Standards again. If something suites you, you agree with it, if it doesnt, you argue with it, even though its sanctioned by the Church. Its got nothing to do with the Eucharist.

1: ITS OLD TESTAMENT
2: ITS A JEWISH MANUSCRIPT
3: THE CHURCH SAYS SO

[dUSt]

Moving to the Debate Table.

[cmotherofpirl]

Question: Is it possible that in Exodus 17: 8-13 we have the pre-figurement of the Holy Trinity and the Church? The chosen men (apostles) are picked to do battle as Aaron the High Priest (Jesus) and Hur (the Holy Spirit and husband of Miriam the Old Testament Hand Maid to the God) support the arms of Moses (God), together as one as the power of God is sent forth to the battle against "evil" while sitting on the Rock (the Church of Peter) "and upon this rock I will build my Church".

Answer: Works for us! [u]The trick to remember about typological readings is that such readings are permissible so long as a) we do not contradict the teaching of the Church and b) we do not insist that everybody else has to agree with us. [/u]There are a few typological readings which have divine sanction (e.g. the Bronze Serpent is an image of Christ crucified (John 3:14) or the manna is an image of the Eucharist (John 6)). But most typological readings, while they may be fruitful and are certainly permitted by the Church, are not required and nobody can demand that the faithful say "This and this alone is what Exodus 17:8-13 has to mean". On the other hand, unless a typological reading is contrary to the teaching of the Church, nobody can say "You can't see that type or prefigurement in Exodus 17:8-13." In short, the basic attitude of the Church toward typological readings is: if it is fruitful for your spiritual life and doesn't contradict the Church's teaching (as, for instance, Charles Manson's reading of Revelation as a license for murder did) then have at it. Just don't demand everybody else see things your way (and don't ignore the literal sense of the text in the process of reading it typologically). For a handy guide to this way of reading Scripture see Mark P. Shea's Making Senses Out of Scripture: Reading the Bible as the First Christians Did.

Edited July 16, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Double Standards again. If something suites you, you agree with it, if it doesnt, you argue with it, even though its sanctioned by the Church. Its got nothing to do with the Eucharist.[/quote]

I'd read it as.. Jesus said Eat my flesh.. Jesus was the word.. so Jesus's command to eat his flesh is to be taken spiritually to eat His words. the same way as that prophet did.

[MorphRC]

Theres a form of connection, but the meaning of the verse has nothing to do with the Eucharist.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Jul 16 2004, 12:14 PM']
I'd read it as.. Jesus said Eat my flesh.. Jesus was the word.. so Jesus's command to eat his flesh is to be taken spiritually to eat His words. the same way as that prophet did. [/quote]
Okay, replace eat with consume and then with chew or gnaw on, because those are the better translations of what the original greek means. He says, "Chew my flesh." As far as "chewing His word" goes, you cannot chew words. The analogy fails.

I highly recommend you read [u]The Lamb's Supper[/u] by Scott Hahn. It gives a very good explanation of what the Eucharist means to Catholics.

[MorphRC]

Got that book, its great, and he explains connections in revelations with the Mass in heaven and earth. Interesting stuff.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]replace eat with consume and then with chew or gnaw on, because those are the better translations of what the original greek means. He says, "Chew my flesh." As far as "chewing His word" goes, you cannot chew words. The analogy fails.[/quote]

You seem to be implying if he used a lighter word it could be then figurative. The analogy would also fail insofar as you interpret it to fail if you used a lighter form of "eat" because you cannot eat words. Why do you make that point? Figurative language is figurative language. He just used more forceful words to reinforce the *need* to take in his words.

Edited July 16, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

he also explains how scripture can have more than one meaning. like how revelation means things that have already taken place, a basic structure of the repeating history of the Church, and things that will take place in the end.

Not a double standard, where have I ever told a protestant a verse cannot have more than one meaning?

The human author didn't necessarily intend it, it couldn't be used as evidence for those who don't believe, but the Holy Spirit I do believe intended it, and it is His reassurance to those who do believe.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Jul 16 2004, 12:30 PM']
You seem to be implying if he used a lighter word it could be then figurative. The analogy would also fail insofar as you interpret it to fail if you used a lighter form of "eat" because you cannot eat words. Why do you make that point? Figurative language is figurative language. He just used more forceful words to reinforce the *need* to take in his words. [/quote]
What is your authority that this is figurative language only? Please support with another Bible verse that this discourse in John chapter 6 is merely figurative. Don't give examples on how else Jesus used figurative language. No one left Jesus after instances of figurative language. I want something else that says that consuming His flesh is equated with believing what He says.

In other words, Catholics can cite multiple verses that emphasize the point that eating his flesh meant eating his flesh. I want to see a verse that says that eating his flesh DOESN'T mean eating his flesh.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[Christina]

Like....OMGoodness!!! The Eucharists is ALL OVER the Bible....for example::


[b]The Todah Sacrifice [/b]

The ancient Jews had a special ritual meal called the Todah (Hebrew: thanks) (pronounce: Taw-DAH). Although the Todah sacrificed an animal, it was greater than other animal sacrifices because it added the suffering of one's own life. David wrote, Ps 40:6,8 "Burnt offering and sin offering Thou hast not required. … I delight to do Thy will, O my God; Thy law is within my heart." Again, David wrote, Ps 51:17 "The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit." And again, Ps 69:30 "I will praise the name of God with a song; I will magnify Him with thanksgiving. This will please the Lord more than an ox or a bull with horns and hoofs." Isaiah spoke the words of God, Is 1:11 "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams." God called instead for a baptism: Is 1:16 "Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from My eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good."

The seventy elders who went up with Moses to see God offered the Todah: Ex 24:11 "They beheld God, and ate and drank." Twelve centuries later, twelve apostles beheld God, and ate and drank as Jesus prepared to offer His Todah sacrifice: Lk 22:19 "He took bread, and when He had given thanks He broke it…" From the beginning, Christ's Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity has been called Holy Eucharist (Greek: eucharistia, thanksgiving).

The ancient rabbis believed that when the Messiah would come all sacrifices except the Todah would cease, but the Todah would continue for all eternity. In 70 AD the Temple fell to earth and all of the bloody animal sacrifices stopped. Only the Todah remains, the eucharistia, the Final Sacrifice at which the last words spoken are Todah l'Adonai, "Thanks be to God."


[b]Passover[/b]

Jesus was pre-figured in the original Passover, when God commanded that Moses tell the Israelites, Ex 12:5-6 "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male … the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs in the evening," as Jesus the Lamb of God was crucified in dim light. Mt 27:45 God commanded, Ex 12:8 "They shall eat the flesh that night," and told Moses, Ex 12:12 "I will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt." But He promised, Ex 12:13 "The blood shall be a sign for you … when I see the blood, I will pass over you." Most of us know that the original Passover pre-figured the Body and Blood of the crucified Lamb. But there is more to the Passover story.

Pharaoh commanded the death of every Hebrew male infant in Egypt, Ex 1:22 but death passed over Moses. Ex 2:5-10 Twelve centuries later, before Herod commanded the death of every Hebrew male infant in Bethlehem, Mt 2:13 death passed also over Jesus.

The Jewish celebration of Passover has from the beginning been an experience of exile and return, as its participants re-live the experience of the desert and encounter with God. After Jesus was crucified the apostles also experienced a sense of exile in the desert followed by a transforming encounter with God. In this way Jesus is spiritually present in the entire Seder.

The Seder table is different in many ways from the Jewish table setting on all other nights, as the ma nishtano acknowledges. God chose a young Jewish girl, a virgin who lived in Nazareth, to begin the rest of the story. Mary began her own Seder each year as Jews have since time immemorial, by lighting candles to give festive light to the table. Mary also gave us Jesus, the Jn 8:12 light of the world. Jesus has been at every Seder from the first one to this very day, spiritually present in the bread, wine, and lamb.


[b]Bread [/b]

Jesus is spiritually present in the bread. It is unleavened, pure as Jesus was pure. It has dark stripes, as His back was striped by Pilate's scourging. It is pierced, as He was pierced on the Cross. Once it was the bread of life for Israel on the desert, as Jesus is the Jn 6:35 Bread of Life for all mankind. During the Seder, the head of the family takes three pieces of unleavened bread, reminding us of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. He breaks in half the second piece, suggesting the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity crucified. He then wraps one of these two pieces, called the afikomen (Hebrew: festival procession), a reminder of Jesus' constant call, "Follow Me," in white linen, reminding us of Jesus linen burial cloth, and "buries" or hides it, as Jesus was entombed. Later the youngest at table "resurrects" or finds the afikomen as Jesus rose from the dead. The head of the family then breaks the afikomen and passes it around for all to eat, as Jesus did when He told His apostles, Lk 22:19 "This is My Body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of Me." In that way, Jesus through the Seder calls us to follow Him into His death and resurrection, to become a new person in Christ.

The unleavened bread also reminds us of the haste with which the Israelites left Egypt. The dough that they were sunbaking on the hot rocks of the Egyptian fields was removed before it could leaven, and so remained flat. It represents our need to remain ever alert and prepared for the day when God calls us to our destiny as Jesus told us, Mt 25:13 "Watch, therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."


[b]Wine [/b]

Jesus is spiritually present in the wine. When the afikomen is broken and passed around for all to eat, Jews drink the third of four cups of wine, called the cup of blessing because it represents the blood of the sacrificed paschal lamb. It is the cup that Jesus gave to His apostles, saying, Lk 22:20 "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in My Blood." He did not drink the fourth, the Kalah cup, explaining, Mt 26:29 "I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." But later that evening at Gethsemane, Jesus prayed by moonlight, Mt 26:39 "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me." After He was captured, Jesus asked Peter, Jn 18:11 "Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given Me?" Many Catholics believe that Jesus drank the last cup on the Cross, Jn 19:29 "They put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to His mouth. When Jesus had received the vinegar, He said, 'It is finished'; and He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."


[b]Lamb [/b]

Pasch or pesach in Hebrew means "he passed over." The paschal lamb recalls the lamb that was sacrificed that its blood might be daubed on the doorposts of every Jewish home, and its body eaten in every Jewish home, that the angel of death might know it as a household of the faithful and pass over. God had originally commanded Ex 12:6 that the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel kill the paschal lambs. When Solomon built the first Temple, Jewish priests sacrificed the paschal lambs there. But after Jesus ascended to heaven and the second Temple fell never to rise again, the Temple sacrifices could no longer be done, so Jews began to represent the paschal lamb with a lamb's shank bone.

Jesus is spiritually present in the shank bone of the lamb. The Jews in Egypt ate the paschal lamb to be physically redeemed and led to the promised land of Canaan. Catholics for two thousand years have consumed the Body and Blood of the Lamb of God, Jn 1:29 that we might be spiritually redeemed and find the promised kingdom of heaven.

In the ancient days, when the Jewish priest had killed the last lamb of the Passover, he uttered the Hebrew word Kalah, "it is finished." Moments before He died on the Cross, Jesus said, Jn 19:30 Kalah (it is finished).

Got LOTS more.....

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]You seem to be implying if he used a lighter word it could be then figurative. The analogy would also fail insofar as you interpret it to fail if you used a lighter form of "eat" because you cannot eat words. Why do you make that point? Figurative language is figurative language. He just used more forceful words to reinforce the *need* to take in his words[/quote]

Dairygirl, you are right when you say that the analogy would ultimately fail, because it does. You are wrong when you speak of figurative language. If you read the many passages where the eucharist is spoken of, it becomes painfully clear that Christ is [i]not[/i] speaking figuratively.

People flocked to hear Christ's parables (figurative language), but they fled when he told them that "unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you shall not have life within you." Not only did they flee, they fled saying "this is a hard teaching." So hard, in fact, that Christ even asked the Apostles if they too would leave because of it. If Christ was merely figuratively saying "you must believe in my words" such a reaction would have been ridiculous.

Again, one of many examples from scripture, if you wish to pursue the matter further, I'd love to talk with you about it.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

Edited July 18, 2004 by JeffCR07

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Christina' date='Jul 17 2004, 09:57 PM'] Like....OMGoodness!!! The Eucharists is ALL OVER the Bible....for example::


[b]The Todah Sacrifice [/b]

The ancient Jews had a special ritual meal called the Todah (Hebrew: thanks) (pronounce: Taw-DAH). Although the Todah sacrificed an animal, it was greater than other animal sacrifices because it added the suffering of one's own life. David wrote, Ps 40:6,8 "Burnt offering and sin offering Thou hast not required. … I delight to do Thy will, O my God; Thy law is within my heart." Again, David wrote, Ps 51:17 "The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit." And again, Ps 69:30 "I will praise the name of God with a song; I will magnify Him with thanksgiving. This will please the Lord more than an ox or a bull with horns and hoofs." Isaiah spoke the words of God, Is 1:11 "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams." God called instead for a baptism: Is 1:16 "Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from My eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good."

The seventy elders who went up with Moses to see God offered the Todah: Ex 24:11 "They beheld God, and ate and drank." Twelve centuries later, twelve apostles beheld God, and ate and drank as Jesus prepared to offer His Todah sacrifice: Lk 22:19 "He took bread, and when He had given thanks He broke it…" From the beginning, Christ's Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity has been called Holy Eucharist (Greek: eucharistia, thanksgiving).

The ancient rabbis believed that when the Messiah would come all sacrifices except the Todah would cease, but the Todah would continue for all eternity. In 70 AD the Temple fell to earth and all of the bloody animal sacrifices stopped. Only the Todah remains, the eucharistia, the Final Sacrifice at which the last words spoken are Todah l'Adonai, "Thanks be to God."


[b]Passover[/b]

Jesus was pre-figured in the original Passover, when God commanded that Moses tell the Israelites, Ex 12:5-6 "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male … the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs in the evening," as Jesus the Lamb of God was crucified in dim light. Mt 27:45 God commanded, Ex 12:8 "They shall eat the flesh that night," and told Moses, Ex 12:12 "I will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt." But He promised, Ex 12:13 "The blood shall be a sign for you … when I see the blood, I will pass over you." Most of us know that the original Passover pre-figured the Body and Blood of the crucified Lamb. But there is more to the Passover story.

Pharaoh commanded the death of every Hebrew male infant in Egypt, Ex 1:22 but death passed over Moses. Ex 2:5-10 Twelve centuries later, before Herod commanded the death of every Hebrew male infant in Bethlehem, Mt 2:13 death passed also over Jesus.

The Jewish celebration of Passover has from the beginning been an experience of exile and return, as its participants re-live the experience of the desert and encounter with God. After Jesus was crucified the apostles also experienced a sense of exile in the desert followed by a transforming encounter with God. In this way Jesus is spiritually present in the entire Seder.

The Seder table is different in many ways from the Jewish table setting on all other nights, as the ma nishtano acknowledges. God chose a young Jewish girl, a virgin who lived in Nazareth, to begin the rest of the story. Mary began her own Seder each year as Jews have since time immemorial, by lighting candles to give festive light to the table. Mary also gave us Jesus, the Jn 8:12 light of the world. Jesus has been at every Seder from the first one to this very day, spiritually present in the bread, wine, and lamb.


[b]Bread [/b]

Jesus is spiritually present in the bread. It is unleavened, pure as Jesus was pure. It has dark stripes, as His back was striped by Pilate's scourging. It is pierced, as He was pierced on the Cross. Once it was the bread of life for Israel on the desert, as Jesus is the Jn 6:35 Bread of Life for all mankind. During the Seder, the head of the family takes three pieces of unleavened bread, reminding us of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. He breaks in half the second piece, suggesting the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity crucified. He then wraps one of these two pieces, called the afikomen (Hebrew: festival procession), a reminder of Jesus' constant call, "Follow Me," in white linen, reminding us of Jesus linen burial cloth, and "buries" or hides it, as Jesus was entombed. Later the youngest at table "resurrects" or finds the afikomen as Jesus rose from the dead. The head of the family then breaks the afikomen and passes it around for all to eat, as Jesus did when He told His apostles, Lk 22:19 "This is My Body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of Me." In that way, Jesus through the Seder calls us to follow Him into His death and resurrection, to become a new person in Christ.

The unleavened bread also reminds us of the haste with which the Israelites left Egypt. The dough that they were sunbaking on the hot rocks of the Egyptian fields was removed before it could leaven, and so remained flat. It represents our need to remain ever alert and prepared for the day when God calls us to our destiny as Jesus told us, Mt 25:13 "Watch, therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."


[b]Wine [/b]

Jesus is spiritually present in the wine. When the afikomen is broken and passed around for all to eat, Jews drink the third of four cups of wine, called the cup of blessing because it represents the blood of the sacrificed paschal lamb. It is the cup that Jesus gave to His apostles, saying, Lk 22:20 "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in My Blood." He did not drink the fourth, the Kalah cup, explaining, Mt 26:29 "I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." But later that evening at Gethsemane, Jesus prayed by moonlight, Mt 26:39 "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me." After He was captured, Jesus asked Peter, Jn 18:11 "Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given Me?" Many Catholics believe that Jesus drank the last cup on the Cross, Jn 19:29 "They put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to His mouth. When Jesus had received the vinegar, He said, 'It is finished'; and He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."


[b]Lamb [/b]

Pasch or pesach in Hebrew means "he passed over." The paschal lamb recalls the lamb that was sacrificed that its blood might be daubed on the doorposts of every Jewish home, and its body eaten in every Jewish home, that the angel of death might know it as a household of the faithful and pass over. God had originally commanded Ex 12:6 that the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel kill the paschal lambs. When Solomon built the first Temple, Jewish priests sacrificed the paschal lambs there. But after Jesus ascended to heaven and the second Temple fell never to rise again, the Temple sacrifices could no longer be done, so Jews began to represent the paschal lamb with a lamb's shank bone.

Jesus is spiritually present in the shank bone of the lamb. The Jews in Egypt ate the paschal lamb to be physically redeemed and led to the promised land of Canaan. Catholics for two thousand years have consumed the Body and Blood of the Lamb of God, Jn 1:29 that we might be spiritually redeemed and find the promised kingdom of heaven.

In the ancient days, when the Jewish priest had killed the last lamb of the Passover, he uttered the Hebrew word Kalah, "it is finished." Moments before He died on the Cross, Jesus said, Jn 19:30 Kalah (it is finished).

Got LOTS more..... [/quote]
This should go to the apologetics board.