When Will This Division End?!!!

[Ash Wednesday]

I support traditional liturgies, communion rails and architecture, and I have my reasons. For the most part I no longer discuss it online though. In my experience the discussion often turns into a time-wasting dumpster fire because people can take opinions about the liturgy very personally, and I've found it difficult to navigate the topic without pushback because it's easy for people to get overly defensive and mistakenly view you as being judgmental of others. So I no longer waste my time. Too much time arguing online is not good for spiritual health. There are plenty of books, documentation and debates out there online about the liturgy and now I just encourage people to just do their research and discern for themselves.
 

On 5/19/2021 at 1:17 AM, PaxCordisJesu said:

Just today I overheard someone saying some very nasty things about someone else, for no other reason than that they like the TLM. And I was like "what the heck is wrong with you?" I've seen so much if this, I am sick and tired of people hating on each other because they attend a different liturgy!!!

For me, growing up post Vatican II in the 80s and 90s, there was a deep rooted hostility against the TLM and anything traditional. It was a hostility that existed in my CCD classes and from some of our older pastors and youth group leaders.  The reasons for the fear and bias among older generations and how that differs from younger ones is an interesting topic in itself. Either way, that fear or bias runs pretty deep and it's easy to pass that on.

With the resurgence of the TLM post Benedict Motu Proprio, especially among younger Catholics, there's going to be friction and growing pains on the matter. We're probably not all going to agree anytime soon. But yeah, the disagreements are no excuse for us to not all try to be humble and treat each other with respect.

Sorry for writing a book.

[Peace]

16 hours ago, Ash Wednesday said:

I support traditional liturgies, communion rails and architecture, and I have my reasons. For the most part I no longer discuss it online though. In my experience the discussion often turns into a time-wasting dumpster fire because people can take opinions about the liturgy very personally, and I've found it difficult to navigate the topic without pushback because it's easy for people to get overly defensive and mistakenly view you as being judgmental of others. So I no longer waste my time. Too much time arguing online is not good for spiritual health. There are plenty of books, documentation and debates out there online about the liturgy and now I just encourage people to just do their research and discern for themselves.
 

For me, growing up post Vatican II in the 80s and 90s, there was a deep rooted hostility against the TLM and anything traditional. It was a hostility that existed in my CCD classes and from some of our older pastors and youth group leaders.  The reasons for the fear and bias among older generations and how that differs from younger ones is an interesting topic in itself. Either way, that fear or bias runs pretty deep and it's easy to pass that on.

With the resurgence of the TLM post Benedict Motu Proprio, especially among younger Catholics, there's going to be friction and growing pains on the matter. We're probably not all going to agree anytime soon. But yeah, the disagreements are no excuse for us to not all try to be humble and treat each other with respect.

Sorry for writing a book.

Yeah I don't know why there needs to be such a big beef about it. If you prefer the TLM go to the TLM. If you prefer the NO go to the NO. It really should be as simple as that.

I don't know why folks have to be like "The TLM smells of elderberries we should only have the NO" or "The NO smells of elderberries we should only have the NO." There have always been different variations of the Mass within the Church that have co-existed at the same time, so taking either stance seems flat-out-wrong to me.

I can understand the TLM folks who feel like they don't have an opportunity to attend the TLM, but at least where I am at that doesn't seem to be the case, where you can find it easily. I would say that there is even an "oversupply" of TLM in my area. There are at least 3 TLM masses at my church each week and I'd say off-hand they are the least attended.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Peace

[Guest]

On 5/27/2021 at 12:13 AM, Peace said:

I don't know why folks have to be like "The TLM smells of elderberries we should only have the NO" or "The NO smells of elderberries we should only have the NO."

?  

.... and sometimes stated that we should only have the  TLM.

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 Ash Wednesdady: "For the most part I no longer discuss it online though. In my experience the discussion often turns into a time-wasting dumpster fire because people can take opinions about the liturgy very personally, and I've found it difficult to navigate the topic without pushback because it's easy for people to get overly defensive and mistakenly view you as being judgmental of others."

Not my forte - but well said, particularly elsewhere in your post that it is not good for one's spiritual life.

This a very long post, which is my 'forte'.

I could not state that I support any particular liturgy of The Mass.  My personal preference is the NO or, for me, The Mass celebrated in English because the words stay with me longer. I am able to reflect on a Mass content and homily after I come home at some point. The Mass in Latin can distract me even though we do have, or used to have pre V2 (I don't know which, still have my pre V2 Latin Daily MIssal)  English in one column and The Latin in another.  But that is just me.  As a sufferer of bipolar, I do have some features of a bipolar mind all the time.  This is why I like the written word as I can take my time and review, perhaps a few times, before posting.  I can transfer my post to Word as sometimes I have returned to Pham to review what is written and it has disappeared.  It is just a software thing or something I have done I should not do on the computer.   I just say to myself "not meant to be" and move on.

It rather reminds me of the texts of St Teresa of Avila's works or commentary on them - in that we are all different, unique creations -- as is the action of The Holy Spirit in journeys.  And why I need a spiritual director if I can find one. St Teresa and/or commentaries I have read, states that one does not HAVE to go A then B then C on the spiritual/mystical way as she has presented it in an A B C type sequence - that we are all different and might go B then C and then A etc, and variations.  Commenting on the Dark Night of The Soul I know either St Teresa or St John of the Cross (unsure which - I think it is St Teresa) states that this Dark Night can re-occur for differing lengths of time throughout a lifetime, with daylight and breaks in-between, and that he/she knew a person who suffered The DNofTheSoul until death.  Now we have a written text by St Mother Teresa as an example of lasting a lifetime. Our mystics too are particularly aware of actions of The Holy Spirit, it seems to me.

A couple of years ago, our pp was relieved (while having surgery) by an Anglican Ordinariate priest, married with children.  He would celebrate our 6pm Mass. The Anglican Ordinariate is fully united with Rome and we can go to go to Mass and Holy Communion for example celebrated by an Anglican ordinariate priest - they do need to be re-ordained .  They do not have a bishop here in South Australia as yet, so those Sacraments requiring a Bishop must be celebrated by a Bishop.  Their more commonly used title seems to be "Anglican Ordinariate in The Latin Rite".  The strictly correct title apparently is "Personal Ordinariate" HERE.  Some in the parish would walk straight past him even if he held out his hand.  What was said about Father at times in the parish was rude and sometimes nothing but overt bigotry.  One lady said that he was a faux-priest .  He now celebrates Mass late morning on a Sunday in my parish Church here.

I have had chats and one quite lengthy conversation with Father and I have come away impressed by him.

To me, personally, the Magisterium is guided by The Holy Spirit.  Can mistakes be made?  Yes they can, if not on Faith and/or Morals, but in the Doctrine of Divine Providence, anything at all negative in life can only occur if permitted to do so by The Holy Spirit i.e. God.  And only good will come of it even if we cannot identify that good.  We only have to reflect on our Doctrine/Divine Providence CCC behind the barbaric crucifxion of Jesus.   If our Holy Father said tomorrow that something was wrong and must change.  I would be obedient to him and try to change my attitude to whatever.  If at some point, another Pope after him changed that, then I would be try to be obedient to him.  There can be exceptions.

All the above are only my personal content only.  I love the LTM - but personally prefer the NO. 

To me, personally, some of the wording in the Personal Ordinariate liturgy are particularly beautiful too.

___________________

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https://ordinariate.net/q-a "Anglican clergy seeking to be ordained as Catholic priests must first complete an extensive process that includes background checks; approval by the head of the Ordinariate and by the Vatican; completion of an approved Ordinariate formation program; and an examination. Celibacy is the norm for the clergy. Permission has been given on a case-by-case basis by the Pope for former Anglican priests who are married to be ordained Catholic priests for the Ordinariate. If widowed, they may not remarry."  Ordination Procedure for Anglican Personal Ordinariate (you will need to scroll down)

 

[Peace]

10 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

The Mass in Latin can distract me even though we do have, or used to have pre V2 (I don't know which, still have my pre V2 Latin Daily MIssal)  English in one column and The Latin in another.

Yeah I've always thought that if there is any legitimate disadvantage of the TLM this would be it. Having Mass in a language that is not used by the people seems to go against the spirit of what happened at Pentecost, and even against the reason why the Mass was said in Latin in the first place (it was said in Latin because at the time Latin was the widely-spoken language).

The TLM folks will argue that the TLM is better because it makes things like the sacrificial nature of the Mass, and the reality of the real-presence more apparent to those attending the Mass, but I think that nothing could be further from the truth. If you go to the Mass in English all you need to do is listen to the words being said and these are 100% apparent. If you go to the Latin (especially as a non-Catholic not already familiar with the NO) - you will literally have no idea what is going on.

Then the TLM folks will turn right around and say "Oh well but the Mass is not for teaching." OK. Then why are you handing out the missal with the English right next to the Latin, so that people can understand the meaning of the Latin? It makes no sense!

[Guest]

On 5/29/2021 at 4:48 AM, Peace said:

Yeah I've always thought that if there is any legitimate disadvantage of the TLM this would be it. Having Mass in a language that is not used by the people seems to go against the spirit of what happened at Pentecost, and even against the reason why the Mass was said in Latin in the first place (it was said in Latin because at the time Latin was the widely-spoken language).

The TLM folks will argue that the TLM is better because it makes things like the sacrificial nature of the Mass, and the reality of the real-presence more apparent to those attending the Mass, but I think that nothing could be further from the truth. If you go to the Mass in English all you need to do is listen to the words being said and these are 100% apparent. If you go to the Latin (especially as a non-Catholic not already familiar with the NO) - you will literally have no idea what is going on.

Then the TLM folks will turn right around and say "Oh well but the Mass is not for teaching." OK. Then why are you handing out the missal with the English right next to the Latin, so that people can understand the meaning of the Latin? It makes no sense!

Excellent post - you raised a few points I had never thought about before.  Thanks heaps!

I dont understand the bickering either and certainly not that the NO should go and TLM return.  What is bickered, even with bigotry type of statements, to me is definitely uncharitable statements.  I am flawed almost by 2 things:

Firstly, some do not seem to realize that they are speaking about The Holy Mass where the miracle of Transubstation occurs i.e. changing bread and wine in to The Body and Blood of Jesus - the esseence of Holy Mass.

Seconly, Liturgies are only ceremonies around the essence of The Mass and Transubstation.  

I was only thinking this morning that the shocking and cruel Passion and Crucifixion, Death of Jesus in a slow and agonising way.  It is such evidence that His Love for us just boggles the mind.  Not only that, and totally astounding, He is staying with us in His Body and Blood in Holy Communion.

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There is a beautiful text from Fulton Sheen here: Fulton Sheen "Calvary and The Mass" (from EWTN website) "But how is it made visible? Where shall we find Calvary perpetuated? We shall find Calvary renewed, re-enacted, re- presented, as we have seen, in the Mass. Calvary is one with the Mass, and the Mass is one with Calvary, for in both there is the same Priest and Victim."

It is Jesus who is both Priest and Victim at Holy Mass.

It is The Holy Mass for goodness sake, never changing the essence, no matter what The Church decides to 'build around the essence in what we call liturgy.  Honestly, even if it went into ancient Aramaic, it remains our Holy Mass and the essence remains.

A Mass in Latin can distract me and I can get caught up in the beauty and majesty of a LTM and be perhaps unaware of The Mass itself.  Hence, my personal preference for NO is also because this.

I just don't get what is posted on Pham sometimes, in fact it can really and truly sadden me to the core - but I too try to stay away from the hot and argumentative, bickering,   threads. It is no good for my spiritual life at all, as AshWednesday stated, if I am totally down in the dumps and saddened by what I have read.  I read the thread and at some time I can think "Nope, time to butt in"

The Catholic Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Universal - defined by The Church as the 4 marks of The Church and it summarizes Her meaning as the mission of The Militant Church of The Mystical Body of Christ..  It is in the CCC.  

In a sense, I am The Church as is every single baptized person practicing or not.  Therefore, it seems to be that I should be striving for unity, for holiness, for Catholic (embracing of all varieties of mankind) and to be missionary whatever my vocation in The Church for universality, committed to spreading Jesus and HIs Gospel in the situation or environment to which we are called, our particular little vineyard (environment) to which we are called.  And we might have a few.  On Phatmass too, being a member, I am called to remain the above.

Someone somewhere made a bit of nasty sort of comment about posts which quote some authority at times.  I had to giggle and thought to myself "Man oh man, mate, if you knew what I go through, for example, that thought would never occur to you.  

In posting, I think we should be very much aware that we have readers only, not members only, and sometimes if an enquirer reads some posts.  Well, say no more.

Mea mamixa culpa, Deo gratius, laudate Dominum.

 

[Guest]

We, it seems to me, can discuss differing opinions of our own..  We can discuss why.  But no need at all to attack in some way the poster.  NO need to be an annihilator, yet claim I am a practicing Catholic which are mutually opposed and contradictory, inconsistent.

Mea maxima culpa again.

 

 

[Guest]

The Mass is not for teaching,  as someone has stated in this thread.   However, it can and does teach.

The Mass can teach perhaps especially in the homily.  Usually, Father's homily or sermon is commentary on the Scipture Readings, and especially The Gospel. It is highlighted as an important part of the liturgy of The Mass by the special ritual around it repeated nowhere else in The Mass.  The Gospel is anecdotes and words of Jesus, very often His Teaching words.

Another way The Mass can teach is that somewhere in the liturgy a word, phrase or sentence etc. might linger after Mass.  One has never noticed it in a Mass before, but now one is drawn to give it special thought and reflection - perhaps wisely and prudently asking The Holy Spirit for His Help.

My previous pp would commence the sermon with a short joke and usually good one.  Then he would address the meaning of what we had heard in Readings and The Gospel.  After that, he would speak about how the previous could take effect in ordinary every lives.  He did not go A B C always, sometimes he would vary the chronology.  He was teaching in the context of The Mass.  Weekdays when it was a Mass attended by students from the parish school, he would go down from the altar and stand in front of the children.  The content really was for children.  I could come home reflective of his little homily to the children.  He was teaching them......and me often as well.  The Mass can indeed teach.  Actually reading back this post, I am thinking that one of the purposes of the Mass is to teach; hence The Church has included the homily (for one) in the defined liturgy of The Mass.