Will you get the vaccine?

[GraceUk]

I've now had both doses of the AZ vaccine. It is worrying reading all the negative stuff. But I'm glad I am now vaccinated.,

[islandanchoress]

No. And that decision was not made for ethical reasons and I am deeply grateful for that. I feel for all out there. 

I have M.E/C.F.S and my immune system is down. Period. A vaccine could well trigger the disease it is aimed at protecting from, as experts confirm,  and many with this scourge choose to avoid that risk.  

Being now headed for  eighty ,when I started seeking what extra measures I should take re M.E in old age? The experts have little to offer as so few live this long with it. Most die from  overwhelming infection.  So I chose then to come into total isolation as the vowed anchoress I already am.

 This was a year before covid and vaccination is not mandatory here in Ireland. And I am at peace out here in the ocean. 

I was looking at the Action for M.E and M.E Association sites and the stats re vaccinations and a fair proportion of folk with M.E have refused the vaccine .

 

 

 

[ardillacid]

There’s no circumstance at this point that I would get the vaccine. 
 

As it were, Mother Nature hath bestowed on me natural immunity as I already have had the Kung flu and successfully defeated it. 

[Totally Franciscan]

I am presuming most, if not all, the people posting here are Catholic.  I notice no one is even mentioning that this "vaccine" has embryonic stem cells from aborted fetuses or has been tested with these stem cells.  I as a Catholic could NEVER accept using aborted babies to prosper my life.  

[Peace]

On 6/18/2021 at 6:10 PM, Totally Franciscan said:

I am presuming most, if not all, the people posting here are Catholic.  I notice no one is even mentioning that this "vaccine" has embryonic stem cells from aborted fetuses or has been tested with these stem cells.  I as a Catholic could NEVER accept using aborted babies to prosper my life.  

There is a long discussion of that topic in another thread.

Why don't you go and "notice" (i.e. "judge") that?

FYI what you wrote is not even true. I took the Moderna. What was shot in my arm does not contain embryonic stem cells, nor was what was shot in my arm tested on embryonic stem cells.

There was some testing that occurred somewhere in the development of the Moderna vaccine, but the connection is extremely remote as discussed in the other thread. If you are applying such a remote standard "as a Catholic" then you should also throw out practically every packaged good on your kitchen shelf, every single modern drug in the pharmacy, and throw away your computer while you are at it since Microsoft is funding Planned Parenthood.

TLDR: You don't know what you are talking about and are being hypocritical.

Have a nice day.

[Nunsuch]

On 6/18/2021 at 6:10 PM, Totally Franciscan said:

I am presuming most, if not all, the people posting here are Catholic.  I notice no one is even mentioning that this "vaccine" has embryonic stem cells from aborted fetuses or has been tested with these stem cells.  I as a Catholic could NEVER accept using aborted babies to prosper my life.  

I think this post may be a clear example of someone considering themself to be "more Catholic than the Pope." Because His Holiness has urged everyone who can to be vaccinated. 

Here is just one story about it (there are tons, if you just want to use google):https://www.npr.org/2020/12/25/950297591/in-christmas-message-pope-francis-urges-coronavirus-vaccines-for-all

 

I think I'd rather take my guidance on what Catholics should do from the Holy Father than from a random person on the internet.

[Nihil Obstat]

I have had two doses of Pfizer, and I am morally, scientifically, and epistemically comfortable with that decision.

[qfnol31]

I received both of my vaccines two months ago and have a clear conscience about it.

For anyone still on the fence, I recommend this interview: https://communications.catholic.edu/news/2021/02/professors-discuss-ethics-of-the-covid-19-vaccines.html Full disclosure: I was a research assistant for Dr. Scherz in my last years of school. I really enjoyed working with him and find him to be insightful, well read, and hard working. I would defer to his judgment on such things.

[Ice_nine]

On 5/31/2021 at 2:28 PM, Nunsuch said:

Every--and I mean every--reputable health and medical authority vouches for the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.

So here's the thing, what is a reputable authority?

For example, the New England Journal of Medicine published an article that claimed there is "no clinical utility" in assigning sex at birth, and that the practice should be stopped altogether.

I think it's naive to assume that science is safe from ideology, even a really vile and pernicious one.

I could gather together some examples, we could go back and forth. The point really is the breakdown in trust, a breakdown that is not restored with censorship and mockery from the "reputable authorities."

It's not that I fully trust Alex Jones or any other dissenter, I just do not trust the most powerful purveyors of information. There doesn't need to be some secret cabal in a dark room for ideological conformity to take root within a particular institution. That's just some basic group behavior. And while it might seem crazy for a doctor to let a patient die on the table because of his worldview, never underestimate the power of belief.

There's also some basic common sense. I want to get pregnant. Someone raised a concern about fertility. That discussion was quickly shut down. But regardless of the biological mechanisms involved, how the hell does anyone know how these gene therapies will affect fertility? Human gestation is 10 months and the vaccines haven't even been out for that long. You might say "we have no reason to believe this will cause fertility problems," but that is a far cry from saying there is nothing to worry about. It's either hubris or finger-crossing in my opinion.

So if the medical establishment is supposed to be so much more wise and virtuous than the stupid common folk, they really need to be more tolerant of dissent and have more open dialogues that aren't teeming with condescension and contempt. Allow people to make their own medical decisions the same way we allow people to make other decisions we consider unsafe or foolish (such as skydiving or playing football).

That's a long way of saying I'm not getting this vaccine. At least not right now.

 

[Nunsuch]

7 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

 

It's not that I fully trust Alex Jones or any other dissenter, I just do not trust the most powerful purveyors of information. There doesn't need to be some secret cabal in a dark room for ideological conformity to take root within a particular institution. That's just some basic group behavior. And while it might seem crazy for a doctor to let a patient die on the table because of his worldview, never underestimate the power of belief.

So if the medical establishment is supposed to be so much more wise and virtuous than the stupid common folk, they really need to be more tolerant of dissent and have more open dialogues that aren't teeming with condescension and contempt. Allow people to make their own medical decisions the same way we allow people to make other decisions we consider unsafe or foolish (such as skydiving or playing football).

That's a long way of saying I'm not getting this vaccine. At least not right now.

 

Anyone who gives even a scintilla of serious attention to Alex Jones cannot be taken seriously. As for the rest, you are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. Yes, I trust the "medical establishment." No, I don't trust conspiracists and those who think that anyone's unsubstantiated "opinion" or prejudice is as reliable as actual science. 

The places where Covid is spiking are were vaccination rates are lowest. Those who are contracting the disease are almost exclusively those who are not vaccinated. Yeah, I believe all of that more than those who think they know as much as, or more than, those with actual expertise. And I thank God for the vaccine and for the thousands of lives it has already saved.

And, just now, CBS News reported that, in the US alone, the vaccine has prevented at least 279,000 deaths. THAT is being pro-life!

Edited July 11, 2021 by Nunsuch
added content

[Ice_nine]

13 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

Anyone who gives even a scintilla of serious attention to Alex Jones cannot be taken seriously. As for the rest, you are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. Yes, I trust the "medical establishment." No, I don't trust conspiracists and those who think that anyone's unsubstantiated "opinion" or prejudice is as reliable as actual science. 

The places where Covid is spiking are were vaccination rates are lowest. Those who are contracting the disease are almost exclusively those who are not vaccinated. Yeah, I believe all of that more than those who think they know as much as, or more than, those with actual expertise. And I thank God for the vaccine and for the thousands of lives it has already saved.

And, just now, CBS News reported that, in the US alone, the vaccine has prevented at least 279,000 deaths. THAT is being pro-life!

k

[Peace]

On 7/11/2021 at 2:23 AM, Ice_nine said:

So here's the thing, what is a reputable authority?

For example, the New England Journal of Medicine published an article that claimed there is "no clinical utility" in assigning sex at birth, and that the practice should be stopped altogether.

I think it's naive to assume that science is safe from ideology, even a really vile and pernicious one.

I could gather together some examples, we could go back and forth. The point really is the breakdown in trust, a breakdown that is not restored with censorship and mockery from the "reputable authorities."

It's not that I fully trust Alex Jones or any other dissenter, I just do not trust the most powerful purveyors of information. There doesn't need to be some secret cabal in a dark room for ideological conformity to take root within a particular institution. That's just some basic group behavior. And while it might seem crazy for a doctor to let a patient die on the table because of his worldview, never underestimate the power of belief.

There's also some basic common sense. I want to get pregnant. Someone raised a concern about fertility. That discussion was quickly shut down. But regardless of the biological mechanisms involved, how the hell does anyone know how these gene therapies will affect fertility? Human gestation is 10 months and the vaccines haven't even been out for that long. You might say "we have no reason to believe this will cause fertility problems," but that is a far cry from saying there is nothing to worry about. It's either hubris or finger-crossing in my opinion.

So if the medical establishment is supposed to be so much more wise and virtuous than the stupid common folk, they really need to be more tolerant of dissent and have more open dialogues that aren't teeming with condescension and contempt. Allow people to make their own medical decisions the same way we allow people to make other decisions we consider unsafe or foolish (such as skydiving or playing football).

That's a long way of saying I'm not getting this vaccine. At least not right now.

 

 

On 7/11/2021 at 10:00 AM, Nunsuch said:

Anyone who gives even a scintilla of serious attention to Alex Jones cannot be taken seriously. As for the rest, you are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. Yes, I trust the "medical establishment." No, I don't trust conspiracists and those who think that anyone's unsubstantiated "opinion" or prejudice is as reliable as actual science. 

The places where Covid is spiking are were vaccination rates are lowest. Those who are contracting the disease are almost exclusively those who are not vaccinated. Yeah, I believe all of that more than those who think they know as much as, or more than, those with actual expertise. And I thank God for the vaccine and for the thousands of lives it has already saved.

And, just now, CBS News reported that, in the US alone, the vaccine has prevented at least 279,000 deaths. THAT is being pro-life!

Well I agree with @Ice_nine at least for the general principle that we can't just rely on "the medical establishment". I don't trust them either generally or even with individual doctors that I have had bad experiences with. At least in the US that is the same establishment who literally used to use black people as guinea pigs.

That being said, I took a bit of a look at the process for developing the vaccines and the evidence behind them, and thought that it was safe enough for me to take it. If someone reaches a different conclusion based on his review of the evidence that is cool by me as well. You can't expect someone to take something if he does not believe it is safe to take. I sure ain't gonna take any medication or undergo some medical procedure just because "my doctor" or "the medical establishment" advises it. Maybe you trust those people but I have had too many negative experiences with them to trust them like that. What they are advising has to make sense to me, cause if "my doctor" screws up it will be me who suffers the pain from the wrong decision, not him.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Peace

[Ice_nine]

I mean the government has done black people dirty, but they weren't the only ones done wrong.

[Nihil Obstat]

7 hours ago, Peace said:

 if "my doctor" screws up it will be me who suffers the pain from the wrong decision, not him.

Doctors do screw up, even good ones, and people are harmed as a result. That is a necessary consequence of the whole endeavour. On the granular level I tend to think that if you do not trust your doctor, you ought to find a new one, although it is at least in some part my good fortune to have grown up affluent and in a country with excellent healthcare, that this is always an option for me.

On the broader level, we have to ask: does the medical establishment do more good than harm? Are doctors both well intentioned and competent most of the time?

There is a general rule, and there are notable exceptions to the rule that always ought to be recognized and inquired into. But I think there is a human tendency to focus on fears and outliers. COVID has been especially hard because there has been so much that was (and is) unknown. Many legitimate concerns turned out not to materialize, and many things we thought were secure turned out not to be. Nothing should be overlooked, but nothing should be blown out if proportion either.

 

The politicization of knowledge and truth is, I think, extremely frightening.

[Peace]

13 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Doctors do screw up, even good ones, and people are harmed as a result. That is a necessary consequence of the whole endeavour. On the granular level I tend to think that if you do not trust your doctor, you ought to find a new one, although it is at least in some part my good fortune to have grown up affluent and in a country with excellent healthcare, that this is always an option for me.

Well luckily the US is the same. If most people don't trust their doctor, I think they have the option to find another doctor, and will exercise that option.

There are a couple issues with that though, I think. First, on what basis do you trust your doctor? The industry lacks transparency and is really insulated in my opinion. Recently I needed to see an ophthalmologist. I can get a list of doctors from my insurance company, maybe go to their websites and see where they went to school. But that's about it as far as being able to tell if hey is good or not. Doctor A may have a stellar reputation and have great results, Doctor B may have had 1000 complaints and medical malpractice cases filed against him. It's difficult for me to get any type of relevant information that helps me distinguish between the two.

Second, nobody really "trusts" their doctor if we are being honest. If your wife says "Sally had a behavior issue at school today, but I understand the problem and will handle it." You'll be like "OK thanks for letting me know." You are going to let your wife handle it because you actually do trust her. You aren't going to be like "Well explain it to me in detail. I need to verify that everything that you are planning to do to handle the situation is correct and acceptable to me." They way we treat our doctor is much more similar to the latter response above, than the former.

I mean you "trust" your current doctor right? If you go to your doctor with a case of pink eye tomorrow and your doctor says "Nihil, I am recommending that we perform emergency eye-removal surgery within the next two hours and replace your eye with a glass ball" or he says "just head down to surgery, take some anesthesia, don't worry about anything else and in two hours all will be well" you aren't gonna be like "OK Doc thanks for handling it" because he greeted you with a smile and gave your daughter a lollipop during her last visit." I mean you "trust" him but you don't really trust him, if you know what I mean. Ultimately the current information that he states has to make sense to you, and you have to know exactly what he is doing and approve of it, regardless of how great of a doctor he has been, or how much you have trusted him in the past, no? The information still has to make sense, regardless of whatever relationship you currently have.

13 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

On the broader level, we have to ask: does the medical establishment do more good than harm? Are doctors both well intentioned and competent most of the time?

Those are good questions. What do you think? I think doctors have good intentions, but not any more than anybody else in any other industry or profession. Ultimately medicine is a profit driven industry in the US, and I think that creates some incentives that may not ultimately be in the best interests of patients or society at large. For example, I would guess that a majority of the problems that most people face could be solved through proper attention to simple diet and exercise, perhaps even a bit of fasting, but there's no profit in that at all. So instead of just helping people have a proper diet to lose weight to combat their high-blood pressure, diabetes, cholesterol or whatever, the doctors pop out the pad, prescribe all types of pills, gastric-bypass surgeries, or what have you. You can charge a lot of money for those, and doctors are trying to make as much money as possible like everyone else.

13 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

The politicization of knowledge and truth is, I think, extremely frightening.

Interesting. What do you mean?