A Challenge

[geetarplayer]

[url="http://www.reachingforchrist.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=425&view=next"]"Catholic Christian - Oxymoron?"[/url]

Just putting it out there for y'all. If any willing and able apologetics would like to take him up on this challenge, please do.

-Mark

[geetarplayer]

By the way, there is an entire forum on that site called "Roman Catholicism vs Protestantism"... that might keep y'all busy for a while.

-Mark

[geetarplayer]

Tread carefully. Have a defensive stance on this, because anything that the moderator deems to be "soapbox speeches" or "Catholic megaphone" or anything like that will be deleted.

-Mark

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='geetarplayer' date='Jul 8 2004, 10:56 AM'][url="http://www.reachingforchrist.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=425&view=next"]"Catholic Christian - Oxymoron?"[/url]

Just putting it out there for y'all.  If any willing and able apologetics would like to take him up on this challenge, please do.

-Mark[/quote]
Although I have no inclination to write a response to each one of this person's assertions, I will respond to the first one:

[quote name='From the Oxymoron website']Regenerated at baptism of the Spirit [i]versus[/i] Regenerated at baptism of water[/quote]

The Church has always taught that there is but one baptism, and that when a man is baptized in water he is simultaneously given the Spirit, for the sacraments convey the reality that they signify. This Catholic dogma is in perfect agreement with the words of our Lord, who said, "Truly, Truly, I say to you, unless one is born of [i]water[/i] and the [i]Spirit[/i] he cannot enter the Kingdom of God." [John 3:5] Thus, regeneration is effected by the sacrament of baptism, in which a man is cleansed of his sins and given filial adoption through [i]water[/i] and the [i]Spirit[/i]. Catholic sacramental doctrine, unlike the Protestant neo-gnostic rejection of the sacraments, coincides perfectly with what our Lord taught when He spoke to Nicodemus.

Edited July 8, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

someone can put this up if they want, I botched it up and made it cool

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='From the Oxymoron website']Lord's Supper is a memorial [i]versus[/i] Lord's Supper is a sacrifice.[/quote]

The Eucharist is a sacrificial memorial. Clearly, the author of the statement quoted above is unfamiliar with the true meaning of the Biblical term [i]memorial[/i] ([i]zikkaron[/i] in the Hebrew, and [i]anamnesis[/i] in the Greek), because this term does not concern a simple human psychological recollection of an event long past; instead, the [i]Biblical theology of remembrance[/i] concerns the reactualization of a past even through a ritual act, thus making the event of sacred history present and operative now, as a living reality to those participating in the worship of God. To [i]remember[/i] something, in the Biblical sense of the term, is to render present the event recalled so that it can be experienced in a real and efficacious manner by the worshipper today; and this understanding of remembrance was held by both the ancient Hebrews in their worship of God in the Temple, and by the Church in her celebration of the Eucharistic liturgy. As Matthias Scheeben pointed out, the Mass is a sacrifice because it reenacts the once for all oblation of Christ upon the Cross, and is "offered in God's eternal remembrance," and as he went on to say, ". . . this eternal remembrance is visibly depicted to us in the separation of the blood from the body in the Eucharist by the difference between the species." [Matthias Scheeben, [u]The Mysteries of Christianity[/u], page 509] In other words, the memory involved in the Church's liturgical worship is not our memory; instead, it is God's eternal memory, and it is through God's memory that Christ's one all holy sacrifice is rendered present and operative in the Church's worship, and in this way, the merits of His passion are applied to us today through the Sacrifice of the Mass.

Edited July 8, 2004 by Apotheoun

[StColette]

Okay I can handle the " Faith only " part I did a post about it not too long ago.

Verses Concerning Sola fide

James 2:14-26

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works,my faith.
19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.


Phil 2:12-15

12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

14 And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations:

15 That you may be blameless and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation: among whom you shine as lights in the world.

2 Cor 5:10

10 For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

Rom 2:6-10, 13

5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God:
6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
8 But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.
9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil: of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.
10 But glory and honour and peace to every one that worketh good: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God: but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Mt 25:32-46

32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink?
38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee?
39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee?
40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.
43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Gal 6:6-10

6 And let him that is instructed in the word communicate to him that instructeth him, in all good things.
7 Be not deceived: God is not mocked.
8 For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit of the spirit shall reap life everlasting.
9 And in doing good, let us not fail. For in due time we shall reap, not failing.
10 Therefore, whilst we have time, let us work good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Rev 20:12

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Catholic Catechism

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But "faith apart from works is dead": when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -- a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end" and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved."

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."


Hope this helps, I'm having my own challenge at FCFC

God Bless,
Jennie

Edited July 8, 2004 by StColette

[Rebirth flame]

heehee... when i checked out their site, the newest registered user was Phatcatholic! Rock on, Brotha!

[StColette]

lol poor phatcatholic is going to be so worn out he is also over at FCFC lol

[StColette]

Okay I went and posted the "Sola Fide" part on that guys thread lol

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='StColette' date='Jul 8 2004, 06:02 PM'] lol poor phatcatholic is going to be so worn out he is also over at FCFC lol [/quote]
yea, no joke, what's gotten into me!

btw, i posted my reply to the challenge

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[picchick]

There are a few thing in the Lady's post that I can try clarify.

[quote]Eric says that if I give him my virginity through fornicating with him that he will know that I am really a Christian because I'm sinning and trusting God that I'm already forgiven and don't need to repent.[/quote]

We must always trust that God will forgive our sins. But presuming God's Mercy is a sin. If we were to say, "Oh, God will forgive me this sin", then what would keep us from sinning. A real Christian would stay away from sinning and repent of the wrong that he has done.

[quote]He says that if I fornicate with him, he will know that I will be a submissive wife who will do anything he says[/quote]

We are suppose to obey authority in everything except to sin. If we were told by someone in a postition of authority to go steal something, then we are obligated not to do it. So even if husbands are in authority, their wives do not need to obey if asked to do something sinful.

[quote] if a person is "once saved, always saved" [/quote]

A person is in danger of losing eternal salvation. If they were to commit a mortal sin then they would be condemned to Hell. However, once that person went to confession and performed the "duties" that go with it (being truely sorry, performing penance) then they regain eternal salvation.

All in all, sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin. Sex is a beautiful act that should only be used in marriage.

Please correct me if I am wrong in anything.

[VeraMaria]

[quote name='picchick' date='Jul 9 2004, 01:06 AM'] There are a few thing in the Lady's post that I can try clarify.



We must always trust that God will forgive our sins. But presuming God's Mercy is a sin. If we were to say, "Oh, God will forgive me this sin", then what would keep us from sinning. A real Christian would stay away from sinning and repent of the wrong that he has done. [/quote]
Yep, and more, because isn't the sin of presumption in some cases the unforgivable sin: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? . The person is basically saying that they don't 'rpent enough' to change their lifestyle and follow him.

"don't need to repent"? Of course you need to repent your sins! Then you can be forgiven . If you don't repent your sins you're saying that you don't want forgiveness.