Is The Death Penalty Ever Necessary In Our Society

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

What is a double effect case?

[Apotheoun]

Because of the heinous nature of Bin Laden's crime, and the fact that the punishment inflicted must be proportionate to the offense committed; the State would have every right, and in fact a duty, to execute him, in order to redress the grave disorder he caused through the mass murder of thousands of innocent people.

[StColette]

lol Chris yep someone agrees with you

[StColette]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 8 2004, 04:13 PM'] Because of the heinous nature of Bin Laden's crime, and the fact that the punishment inflicted must be proportionate to the offense committed; the State would have every right, and in fact a duty, to execute him, in order to redress the grave disorder he caused through the mass murder of thousands of innocent people. [/quote]
well the State isn't God !!

[ThyWillBeDone]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 8 2004, 05:13 PM'] Because of the heinous nature of Bin Laden's crime, and the fact that the punishment inflicted must be proportionate to the offense committed; the State would have every right, and in fact a duty, to execute him, in order to redress the grave disorder he caused through the mass murder of thousands of innocent people. [/quote]
What gives the state this right. The catechism doesn't mention such a right to excute someone, don't you think it would have been mentioned there if it were true.
Chris

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='StColette' date='Jul 8 2004, 04:17 PM'] well the State isn't God !! [/quote]
Of course the State isn't God, nor did I say it was, but God in Sacred Scripture has revealed His will, and He has given the sword to the State in order to execute His judgment, therefore, the State may execute a malefactor. [cf., Romans 13:1-5] So, on this matter, I will side with divine revelation.

[b]Romans 13:1-5[/b]
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience."

Edited July 8, 2004 by Apotheoun

[CatholicCrusader]

Apotheoun said exactly what the Catechism of the Council of Trent says, except he was a bit less absolute on the necessity of capital punishment

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]What gives the state this right. The catechism doesn't mention such a right to excute someone, don't you think it would have been mentioned there if it were true.
Chris[/quote]

The Roman Catechism (a.k.a. Catechism of the Council of Trent) states it VERY clearly. Certainly a catechism mandated by an ecumenical council is much more weighty than something the Pope wrote by his own initiative. Adam (amarkich) already explained this clearly previously in this thread. God bless.

[ThyWillBeDone]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 8 2004, 05:20 PM'] Of course the State isn't God, nor did I say it was, but God in Sacred Scripture has revealed His will, and He has given the sword to the State in order to execute His judgment, therefore, the State may execute a malefactor. [cf., Romans 13:1-5] So, on this matter, I will side with divine revelation. [/quote]
So you have decide to trust your own interpetation of scripture instead of the Magisteriums. I will trust the Magisteriums interpetation.
Chris

[ThyWillBeDone]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Jul 8 2004, 05:23 PM']
The Roman Catechism (a.k.a. Catechism of the Council of Trent) states it VERY clearly. Certainly a catechism mandated by an ecumenical council is much more weighty than something the Pope wrote by his own initiative. Adam (amarkich) already explained this clearly previously in this thread. God bless. [/quote]
In the front of the Catechism you find the APOSTOLIC LETTER FIDEI DEPOSITUM, in it the Pope says

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion"

Sounds to me like I can trust what it says in the Catechism, and it is very clear on the death penalty
Chris

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ThyWillBeDone' date='Jul 8 2004, 04:24 PM'] So you have decide to trust your own interpetation of scripture instead of the Magisteriums. I will trust the Magisteriums interpetation.
Chris [/quote]
It is a failure to understand the relationship between Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church, to argue that the Magisterium can either alter what God's has revealed, or change the immutable principles of the natural moral law. The Magisterium, as Vatican 2 teaches, is not above the word of God, but is its servant, and thus it cannot alter anything that has been revealed. [cf., Dogmatic Constitution [u]Dei Verbum[/u], no. 10] Do not confuse the prudential judgments of the Pope with statements that bind in conscience. Cardinal Ratzinger's recent letter to the US Bishops about politicians who dissent from Church teaching on abortion and who still receive communion is illustrative of this, for in that letter Cardinal Ratzinger points out that the faithful are not bound to accept the judgments of the Pope as [i]de fide[/i], in matters touching on capital punishment or whether or not to go to war.

I want to be clear on this, I am not arguing for the indiscriminate use of the death penalty, because in most cases it can be avoided, but that does not mean that it cannot be used at all.

Edited July 8, 2004 by Apotheoun

[CatholicCrusader]

ThyWillBeDone, the Magesterium spoke outright that it is NOT immoral to have the death penalty. In fact, She stated that it is in [i]paramount obedience[/i] to do so. Either that is wrong (as you claim), meaning the Magesterium erred, or the new idea of the death penalty is wrong and is a liberal idea from modernism spurred on by the "dignity of the human person" (be he a homosexual, murderer, heretic, etc., etc.). The new catechism is not infallible. The Roman Catechism is not, either; however, for those who take "whatever the Pope says as doctrine" it is impossible to deny the Roman Catechism, especially when the new catechism does not contradict it outright nor does it condemn the death penalty outright. Furthermore, it does not quote any document whatsoever, be it from a council, the Church Fathers, etc. All it can muster is a speach from the Pope. Do you trust Sacred Tradition, Scripture, Popes and Saints from all days, the Church Fathers, and many councils, especially the Council of Trent as well as the Church's stance throughout history (inquisition, etc.) or do you trust this new idea invented c. 1980 from the Pope's opinion?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 8 2004, 04:31 PM'] I want to be clear on this, I am not arguing for indescriminate use of the death penalty, because in most cases it can be avoided, but that does not mean that it cannot be used at all. [/quote]
Do you think the US should ever use it?